In this replay of a 2023 interview, Severin de Wit speaks with Tom Tyler, professor of law and psychology at Yale and founding director of the Justice Collaboratory. A psychologist teaching in a law school — a rare combination — Tyler argues that legal systems are built on assumptions about human nature that are seldom tested against what psychologists actually know. His research points to something striking: people comply with the law more because they trust it than because they fear it. And what builds that trust is not whether you win or lose your case, but how you were treated along the way — whether you were heard, treated with respect, and felt the process was fair. This is the idea of procedural justice, and it has both a decision-making side (voice, neutrality, consistency) and a relational side (dignity, sincerity, genuine attention to people’s concerns). The conversation ranges across criminal justice, civil and administrative law, prisons, and policing, including how police officers who feel fairly treated by their own superiors go on to treat the public more fairly. Tyler explains why a system built on fear requires policing forever, while one built on trust makes communities stronger: people cooperate, testify, engage with their neighbours, and invest in where they live. He also has warm words for the Netherlands, citing the Ombudsman’s adoption of procedural justice principles and the influence of empirical research on Dutch policy — and a challenge for the legal world everywhere: take empiricism seriously as a tool for improvement. A thoughtful, evidence-based case for why trust isn’t just a different model of legal authority, but a superior one. [ Due to the holiday season, we are publishing this interview again. It was first published on September 6, 2023, as episode 76]