My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond.

In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into ecosocialism as an alternative to capitalism, and what economic democracy actually looks like in practice. We cover China’s rise – how its economy actually works, why the West has turned against it, and what it means for the Global South – and we end with a discussion of how to build the mass movements capable of bringing a better future to life.

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Here are links to the resources mentioned in our conversation:

• Mondragon Corporation, the worker-owned cooperative federation in Spain that Jason mentions as a real-world model of economic democracy: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/
• GKN Factory in Florence, Italy, which workers have converted from an auto parts plant into a solar panel factory: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/italy-gkn-factory-occupation-transform-production-workers-jobs-climate-change
• Jason’s Substack article on “delinking”: https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/what-is-delinking
• Global Inequality Project, a research platform by Jason and team that publishes data on imperialism, unequal exchange, and global inequality: https://globalinequality.org/

Learn more about Jason Hickel and his work: https://www.jasonhickel.org/

Follow Jason Hickel on social media: 

Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjasonhickel/ 

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jasonhickel.bsky.social

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00:00 What capitalism really is

01:09 Introducing Jason Hickel

02:20 Capitalist imperialism in action: Venezuela, Iran, Lebanon

05:27 Why the US supports Israel

08:45 Capitalism, coups & the war on sovereignty

22:13 How capitalism creates poverty

25:25 Socialism as a solution

31:41 Why solving the climate crisis means overcoming capitalism

36:09 Economic democracy in practice

48:09 Elections vs. revolution: building a mass movement

57:01 The immiseration of the Western working class

59:28 Socialism is our best alternative to fascism 

1:06:31 The limits of identity politics

1:13:52 Why the West fears China’s rise

1:20:16 How China builds what the West won’t

1:32:54 Delinking from the capitalist law of value 

1:38:02 Hope for a better future

1:46:51 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Jason Hickel

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Producer: Jade Risser

Thanks for watching episode 016. Stay tuned for more!