Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future!

Former solicitor and Channel 4 voiceover artist Barra Fitzgibbon joins Scott and Elizabeth to ask whether lawyers’ instinct to solve problems gets in the way of hearing their clients. Barra shares how learning to listen changed his relationship with his son, and how three doctors made him feel heard while he recovered from critical illness. They discuss trust, the expertise clients bring to a conversation, and small ways lawyers can give someone their full attention.

Key themes

• The urge to solve: Why preparing advice while a client speaks can cause a lawyer to miss what matters to them.
• Two experts in the room: The lawyer knows the law; the client knows their life, concerns and priorities.
• Listening builds trust: Barra’s experience with his son shows how being heard can make a difficult conversation possible.
• Care under pressure: During Barra’s recovery from Covid, three doctors took the time to understand what he was trying to communicate.
• Attention in practice: Notes, screens and the next question can all draw a lawyer away from the person speaking.
• A human-first conversation: Barra questions what may be lost if a client’s first consultation is handled by AI.

Memorable quotes

“When you learn to listen, it’s contagious. It actually teaches the other person to listen back.”
— Barra Fitzgibbon

“If you think you’re the expert, you’re gonna interrupt. You won’t handle a gap or a silence. You’ll just burst in with your advice and burst in with your direction.”
— Barra Fitzgibbon

“But they would hold my space. They would stand there and watch me write this until they could read it. That’s listening.”
— Barra Fitzgibbon, describing the doctors who cared for him

“For you to be trusted, you have to be an attentive listener.”
— Barra Fitzgibbon

“I do worry a little bit about clients’ first interactions being with AI because AI is not a good listener.”
— Barra Fitzgibbon

“I hate the word soft skills because I don’t believe they should be called soft skills. They should be called critical skills.”

— Barra Fitzgibbon

Important insights and actionable takeaways

• In your next client meeting, notice when you start forming advice before the client has finished. Give them room to complete the thought, then respond to what they actually said.
• Treat the client’s account of their circumstances as information only they can provide. Legal knowledge alone cannot tell you how the issue affects their life.
• If you need to take notes, explain that at the start. Barra, Scott and Elizabeth discuss how this can help a client understand why you occasionally look away.
• Practise in one conversation rather than trying to change every interaction at once. Turn off distractions and pay attention to what changes.
• Make listening part of lawyers’ development, especially when they are learning to take instructions. A complete record matters, and so does a client who feels able to speak openly.

You can reach out to Barra at

You can get Vital Conversations by Alec Grinmsley from any major bookstores or online at Amazon.