Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future!

In this episode, hosts Elizabeth de Stadler and Scott Simmons sit down with Dr Emma Clarke, an organisational psychologist based in Amsterdam whose PhD research uncovered the structural and cultural forces driving burnout and turnover in law firms.

Emma explains her three-factor model of psychological safety — barriers and blind spots, leadership behaviours, and access to resources — and shares how hierarchy, billable hours and gendered time use reinforce an unsafe culture. She also talks about her AI-powered platform to detect early warning signs of workplace risk before they lead to harm.

Key Themes 

• Psychological Safety Defined: Why it’s the foundation for culture, performance and well-being.
• Structural Challenges: Hierarchy, billable hours, and gender differences compound stress.
• The Three-Factor Model: Barriers & blind spots, leader behaviours, and access to resources.
• Role Modelling Matters: Leaders’ behaviours cascade down, shaping what juniors see as “normal.”
• Tokenistic Wellbeing: Why individual-focused initiatives fail without systemic change.
• A Preventative Platform: Using AI and psychology to surface risks before they harm people.

Memorable Quotes 

• “Psychological safety is a belief or a perception that people have about their environment.” — Emma Clarke

• “Psychological safety is foundational. It’s the foundation to culture. It’s a foundation to performance. It’s a foundation to well-being, engagement, retention, all of those great things.” — Emma Clarke

• “There’s three critical factors… barriers and blind spots, the leader behaviours and the resources. These are the three critical factors that are important to build psychological safety.” — Emma Clarke

• “Leaders think the reason people are leaving is X. When you talk to employees they say Y.” — Emma Clarke

• “A number of times I heard in my research about leaders just going mental because something had happened… Everybody’s observing this and seeing that this is what happens if we make a mistake.” — Emma Clarke

• “In my last performance review… you could have been good this year, but because of your health we can’t give you a good score because you didn’t do enough hours.” — Research participant quoted by Scott Simmons

• “Law firms have to be really brave… if they want to retain talent, improve well-being and reduce burnout.” — Emma Clarke

• “The hierarchy, this formal hierarchical structure creates a really unsafe environment for people.” — Emma Clarke

• “This is not a hostage situation.” — Elizabeth de Stadlerish

Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways 

• Audit your blind spots: Leaders often misdiagnose why people leave because staff don’t feel safe to tell the truth.
• Reward behaviours, not just billables: Promotion criteria should include emotional intelligence, fairness and empathy.
• Make wellbeing collective, not individual: Stop framing burnout as a personal failure — address the system.
• Plan long-term: Law firms must look beyond each financial year to invest in future talent and sustainable culture.
• Challenge definitions of success: The “big law or bust” mindset traps lawyers in unhealthy environments.
• Leverage transferable skills: Law degrees equip graduates for many careers — it’s not a hostage situation.

Connect with Emma Clarke

• LinkedIn: Emma Clarke

• Headspace Consulting: headspaceconsulting.co