Lara is speaking at a conference this week on a topic we immediately knew would be a good one for us to Unbox – Saying No.

Non.

Nej.

Tidak.

Hapana.

It’s a word in just about every language because it’s a crucial one. (Rowan wanted to list about 40 more of them because he’s a language nerd. He would like to point out his self-restraint here.)

Yet, despite its importance, the word “no” can come with a flurry of feelings both for the person who hears it and the one who says it. In this episode, we’re focusing on the latter.

Why is saying “no” so difficult for some of us? What lessons did society teach us that make it harder? And what, if anything, can we do to make it easier? Is there a mindset shift that needs to happen? Does we get better at it over time?

These are the thoughts we carry with us into this episode, and we hope something we said here helps make this small but powerful word a simpler one to use.

No.

Cha.

Ora.

Jo.

(We’d better wrap this up before Rowan gets carried away again.)

Transcript

(please note, we don’t edit these so there could be some errors in the transcription)

[00:00:00] Rowan: There are actually billions of people on the planet.

you don’t have to be the one to say yes to everything. it’s that simple and I wish I had always known it was that simple, Because I didn’t, I really thought for some reason that if I didn’t do certain things, the sky would fall. Welcome back to unboxing it. I’m Lara.

And I’m Rowan,

[00:00:45] Lara: and we are going to talk about something today that I wanted to bring up. I am going to be speaking about this topic at a conference soon, and it is something that I know a lot of people struggle with and are honestly kind of afraid of, and it is the idea of figuring out how to say no.

[00:01:05] Rowan: No, look, I just did it. Alright. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:01:11] Lara: Um, yeah. Done just like this? No,

[00:01:14] Rowan: no. Yeah. You can say it a bunch of way. You go nah or nope, nope. Is an option. Yep. I digress. I’m just, I’m just teasing. I actually have a really hard time saying no sometimes, so I’m looking forward to this episode.

[00:01:26] Lara: Yeah, it’s something that we struggle with. You know, I’m speaking at a conference where it’s about specifically in the workplace. and so it can come up in lots of different ways where we feel like we should be agreeable, we should say yes, we should. And you know, should is not my favorite word. do what we can for people when they ask us to.

However, doing everything all of the time for everybody, regardless of whether or not we have capacity is not good for anybody.

[00:02:00] Rowan: You know what really gets me is that there are people who are just inherently good at saying no to things. I’ve met them, I’ve asked them for things, and they’ve said no.

[00:02:11] Lara: Yeah,

[00:02:11] Rowan: and I’m never really upset that they said no. I think just as somebody who’s had to learn how to do it and doesn’t always do it incredibly well, I’m more just in awe of them. And I think, you know, what is it? Is it upbringing? Were you just born like that? you know, or did you actually learn it?

But it’s so seamlessly a part of your life now that it doesn’t seem like you’re trying, it’s just like rolls off the tongue.

[00:02:40] Lara: It’s probably all of those things depending on the person. And I think the more confident we are in why we’re saying no, in the fact that we are not obligated to do things that don’t work for us, the easier it gets to start saying it.

And with so many of these things that we talk about, it’s not easy at the beginning,

[00:03:00] Lara: but it does get easier.

[00:03:02] Rowan: it does get easier from experience. It really does. But let’s start at the beginning, like why do you think some people have a hard time saying, no,

[00:03:11] Lara: we’re meant to be agreeable.

That’s how we’ve been told to be right. This goes back to all the societal expectations we have. We’re meant to be agreeable. We’re meant to try to be helpful as much as possible. we’re meant to be selfless and saying no might feel selfish.

[00:03:29] Rowan: Ooh, that word.

[00:03:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:31] Rowan: Nobody likes that word. Nobody likes to align themselves with the idea of being selfish.

Right.

[00:03:38] Lara: Which is what Saying no can feel like. If somebody asks you for something, and again, like I work with a lot of people, in their businesses who struggle with saying no. And some of it is they no longer have the capacity to do it all, and they really want to help, right? Somebody’s asking them for something and they want to be able to do it.

So how do you say no when it makes you feel like they need this help and I can do it. it feels so difficult and misaligned to say no, but again, we cannot do everything for everyone. It is simply not possible.

[00:04:17] Rowan: So maybe also a bit of guilt or even shame, like if I don’t help this person, if I don’t do this thing that I know I technically can do if I don’t do it.

then I’m not a very good person. What does that say about me as a person, right?

[00:04:33] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:34] Rowan: I also think there’s definitely, a gender imbalance here where women and people who were raised as girls and women tend to be taught extra. That saying no is bad. And that the whole people pleasing element comes into it as well, right?

We want people to like us. I say, we as, for people who may not have listened to our other episodes, I am a transgender man and I spent over 40 years, on the other side of things. So I come at this with a fair amount of experience, too personal experience, but we are taught that. We’re gonna get ahead in life if people like us, right?

And that we’re going to have a happier life if people like us. So saying, no flies in the face of that from a logical sense. And I think it takes a while to unlearn that. you talk to people who are in their, you know, maybe thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. Especially when you get to midlife, there’s that idea of having your villain era.

Mm-hmm. Your villain era being very much about me and setting boundaries and learning to focus, you know, put myself front and center But up until then, we’re running ourselves ragged a lot of the time, just saying yes to everything.

[00:06:05] Lara: The fact that anybody like, so I haven’t heard this whole villain era thing, but I am not surprised that people say that.

But just in that name, you’re basically, or whoever came up with this or the joke of it, because again, it’s, you know, clearly meant to be the joke of it, right? Is that when you say no and you have boundaries, you’re being a villain and you’re being selfish, but like, no. Oh, you just

[00:06:29] Rowan: said it.

[00:06:30] Lara: I did.

[00:06:32] Rowan: Good job villain.

[00:06:33] Lara: I know like to me it’s like it really is around the confidence piece. It’s understanding that I have the right to decide what’s right for me. I get to choose what makes sense. I don’t have to do anything for you. Unless I want to, and that unless I take care of me, I’m not gonna be able to help anybody.

This whole idea of, you know, if I don’t take care of me, if I don’t have boundaries, if I keep saying yes to everything, I’m gonna burn out and be able to help nobody.

[00:07:13] Rowan: Burnout is really serious. Like we use the term very flippantly, right? But burnout, as someone who has gone through it, uh, I think at least three times now, diagnosed burnout.

It is an all encompassing exhaustion.

[00:07:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:31] Rowan: And it isn’t just mental, it’s physical and the recovery time from it. Is a lot longer than you probably think it is. If you’ve never had burnout. It isn’t just, oh, I’m getting worn down at my job, or, oh, I’m getting really worn down. you know, caretaking or whatever it might be like

you’ve gone beyond that now because you’ve taken so much on, for whatever reason, whether because you’ve had no choice or you’ve had a choice, but you’ve continued to prioritize others over yourself either way. It doesn’t matter. It’s not a blame game, but you get to the point where it is just, you cannot go a step further.

Every day feels like, the end of a marathon, every single day feels like dread. The idea of taking one more thing on is so overwhelming that it’s practically paralyzing it is a terrible, terrible situation if you have not gone through burnout. Do yourself a favor and do that preventative stuff to make sure that you don’t, and that includes learning to set, oh, here’s a big word, right?

Boundaries.

[00:08:38] Lara: Boundaries,

[00:08:39] Rowan: boundaries.

[00:08:41] Lara: Boundaries are difficult to start implementing when you haven’t done it before, but I truly believe they’re good for everybody. That saying no to people or saying. No, at this point, or I can’t do more than this, like whatever the boundary is, it’s good for other people to either take some things on themselves that might be good for them.

It can be good for them to just have a better understanding of what’s true and real for other people. Like it really isn’t just about being non-compliant. It isn’t about being. Contrary. It isn’t about refusal. It’s about making sure that things are working for people.

[00:09:23] Rowan: yeah, an incredibly healthy thing.

There is a mindset shift because I think if you’re not used to setting boundaries in for years, I had no idea how to set a boundary. The idea of setting them does feel contrary. It does feel like suddenly I am going to be a jerk to everybody. Suddenly I am going to be,a very unwelcome face amongst friends and family and colleagues because I am prioritizing my needs over the needs of others where necessary.

But it isn’t like that. I’m going to say that. Yes. When you first start setting boundaries, there can be some people because they’re not used to you setting boundaries where this new behavior comes up on your part. And there might be some pushback. There might be some pushback because they’re like, whoa, what’s this, what’s Rowan doing now?

you always do this for me? When I ask what do you mean you’re not gonna do that? What do you mean you don’t wanna go out tonight? What do you mean you can’t get that report in on Tuesday and it has to be on Thursday? So whatever it is, they don’t know.

And so there may be some pushback. It is about having good communication. It is about being able to state what the boundary is and first of all, it’s about knowing why you’re setting the boundary. What is it that is important here, where you need to set a boundary and how you’re going to set the boundary, how you’re going to deal with any pushback.

If somebody does push back against that boundary. What the consequences will be if that boundary is not respected. That I think is the hardest part for a lot of people. Don’t you think that that idea of, what am I going to do if somebody crosses that boundary?

[00:11:09] Lara: Mm-hmm. is difficult, and I remember the first time I heard somebody say, boundaries aren’t something that other people cross.

It’s something that you need to hold, right? So remembering that a boundary is something that you’re responsible for and you’re gonna decide to what level you’re gonna hold that boundary, right? Like prefiguring that out and knowing that it’s your responsibility. You don’t just tell somebody one day.

don’t ever cross this boundary, whatever it is. I don’t want you to call me after 4:00 PM I don’t know why. That’s my example. But if I don’t want you to call me after 4:00 PM and you call me at 7:00 PM and I answer the phone and I say, why did you call me after 4:00 PM I told you I don’t like that, versus I don’t answer the call after 4:00 PM Right?

Like, some of it is about really holding. What you say to be true so that people believe you. Because if you say one thing and then behave differently, people aren’t going to believe you, so they are going to keep trying to get you to do stuff.

[00:12:07] Rowan: Yeah. I think, abusive relationships aside,

[00:12:10] Lara: yes,

[00:12:11] Rowan: we do teach people how to treat us.

That’s just a fact, right? If I have a group of people in my life and I let that group of people. Make fun of me all the time. I let them leave me out of things all the time. You know, I let them place me at the bottom, whatever it might be all the time. At some point that’s on me.

Like if I recognize that this is happening and if I recognize, say that me saying things, maybe I try and set some boundaries. Maybe I try and that’s not working. At some point, it becomes my responsibility to walk away.

[00:12:47] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:47] Rowan: You know, if I’m in a really toxic work environment now, again, I always feel like I have to, this is, this comes from being on Twitter for a million years before I finally left Twitter, where you say something and I was like, but you forgot about this, and you forgot about that.

So I feel like I need to preface this. Some people do not have the luxury of leaving a job for another job. But let’s say we’re not in a terrible economic situation. If I continue to work in a toxic work environment and nothing is working right, at some point it’s on me to find something else, right?

Like I think that part of saying no is taking your power back. Part of setting a boundary is taking your power back and sometimes part of realizing that saying no. Setting boundaries is not working and needing to move on is also taking your power back.

[00:13:39] Lara: Mm-hmm.

And that’s a really great segue because.

Some of the times when people say no, especially in the workplace, it’s because they’re afraid that by saying no, it’s going to cost them something. Is it going to cost them their reputation with their boss? Is it going to cost them their entire job? Is it going to cost them? You know, the promotion that they want, like all of that is a huge fear.

Like, I cannot say no, or else everything will fall apart. Like, it’s not just that I, don’t wanna be selfish if I say, no, everything will break. I can’t do it. And that’s a real fear people have, and I understand where it comes from.

[00:14:20] Rowan: it is, I think in the workplace, I think in caretaking situations too.

I stayed home with my kids for a long time. I worked from home, but my focus was primarily on my kids. And because I was home, I got asked to do a ton of stuff, like the teachers knew I was home and I was one of the few parents who was, so they were asking me to do every bit of volunteering possible at the school.

But I was also trying to build my business knowing that I wasn’t going to be home forever. That was never my goal. I was trying to build up my business also because we needed money, but it doesn’t matter. The point is I had other things that I wanted to prioritize, and I was constantly feeling like I had to show up to that field trip because if I didn’t show up then the kids couldn’t go.

And there was a mindset shift that had to happen where at some point, and I don’t know where I have four kids, but at some point I had to think to myself, you know, if I don’t go, two things are going to happen. Either some other parent is going to take time away from their schedule to go and fill that need.

Or there will be two or three or four field trips that just don’t happen because there aren’t enough adults there for supervision. And other parents, if they want their kids to go on field trips, will have to make adjustments. But if I always say yes, nobody else is going to step up. And that’s, you know, volunteer situations, work situations where you’re asked to take on extra work.

you know, oh, hey, so and so can you stay late and work on this? Oh, hey, can you do this, little freebie for a client, on the weekend? If you are always, always the person who says yes, because if you don’t, something bad might happen. You’re not giving other people the opportunity to step up and move things around and do it too.

you’re not Atlas holding up the world even though it feels that way. None of us are Atlas holding up the world.

[00:16:30] Lara: I wanna say a million things again. Always. This comes up a lot for me. Number one. Even though I was home, I never volunteered for a single field trip. and I think partially because the very first time I volunteered in the classroom, my kid like freaked out when it was time for me to go, I was like, oh, it’s better if I never come here again.

[00:16:49] Rowan: Like it just made it worse.

[00:16:51] Lara: Yep. And I held that it happened. One time I volunteered in the classroom for my oldest kid and then I was like, that went badly. I am never doing this again. So one of them is like you set that expectation that it should be you and you were needed partially yourself, right?

Like

[00:17:10] Rowan: of course

[00:17:10] Lara: when the call came out that volunteers were needed, you were like, I can do it. I should do it. And now I must do it Like, that kind of Step-by-step came to this place of really feeling obligated, and that’s not necessarily true in terms of, you know, earlier you said some people are really good at saying no, and I think sometimes when people ask things, and it’s so important to remember this, sometimes when people ask things, they are just asking because they don’t know.

If you’re gonna be able to say yes or no, and if you say no, they’re like, oh, okay. And that is the end of it, right? Like, I’m wondering if you could help me with this. I don’t know if that’s something you do and you’re like, no, not really. So you’re like, okay, thanks, and then we’re done. But if you feel like you should say yes to anything that ever gets asked of you.

And then you say yes, and then you resent the hell out of it because you didn’t really wanna do it, you’re not particularly good at it. How did they have the gaul to even ask you to do such a thing when that’s not something you’ve ever done before? And so like this whole story of what it meant when they asked you and the need for you to say yes is a lot in your own head.

And if you just say, oh no, that that’s not something I do, and the other person’s like, okay, great, thanks. I’m gonna go ask the next person. Like imagine if that’s all it took to like sort of relieve you of this stress of saying no. Like if, you know, some people are just gonna be like, oh, okay, thanks.

[00:18:38] Rowan: Yeah.

There are actually billions of people on the planet.

[00:18:41] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:42] Rowan: So you don’t have to be the one to say yes to everything. it’s that simple and I wish I had always known it was that simple, right? Because I didn’t, I really thought for some reason that if I didn’t do certain things, the sky would fall.

is that a tad narcissistic? Yeah, probably. And in retrospect, but really it just came down to. That is largely the message I received growing up, and I don’t mean from my parents, I just mean in general. The message I received is you should be a kind person and what does a kind person do?

Well, kind person helps others, so if you can help others, you should, so, I just took that. To mean I should always help others. And in my life I have also, I mean, I, I’ve written two books. I’m an author, I am a human rights activist. and I get asked to do a lot of free stuff.

That was one of the first places that I learned. I had to set boundaries around, not because I don’t wanna help everybody because I do want to help. Everybody I meet, I have a lot of empathy and my heart just breaks. I’ve been in really difficult situations myself, and when I see people struggling, it really hurts my heart.

But I literally can’t help everyone and I can’t help every organization that comes to me without a budget because if I do that, I have no more room in my life to do anything else. And. The story that I told myself was, if I don’t help this organization, I’m a bad person. If I don’t help this person, I’m a bad person.

But that’s all coming from me. It’s not coming from them. And once I realized that I am a good person, regardless, I’m a kind person regardless. then I realize that if somebody else, worst case scenario, I say no to somebody. They don’t think I’m a kind person. I don’t have to take that on.

[00:20:45] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:45] Rowan: I do not have to take on somebody else’s view of me.

Also learned that on Twitter, by the way, because Wow. Do people have a lot of opinions about you who have never met you and have seen 300 words that you’ve posted in their entire life? But that’s the thing. People form opinions. I don’t have to take that on. I know who I am. So having a really good sense of self can help us learn to say no more effectively and more easily.

[00:21:13] Lara: I’d love to use this particular example to talk about, like, how do you say no in a case like that, because I think part of this is. In terms of a boundary, knowing what your capacity is. So if for example, you really only have the capacity, the ability to take on one free speaking engagement per month, let’s just use that as an example.

It could be three per year. It could be. One per week, like whatever actually works for you, you’re gonna set your own number. But let’s say it’s one per month and somebody comes and asks you to do something if you already know, the answer is, I would love to, but I only have the space to do one per month and I already have something this month.

But please do get in touch with me next year. Or if you want me to put something in the calendar, you know, like you are able to then say it’s not you. It’s simply. The truth of the matter is, I already have as much as I can handle right now. I have one spot per month. I’m not saying, no, I hate you. You’re terrible.

I don’t wanna help you. I’m explaining what’s true and that makes it a little less like you are being a bad person.

[00:22:23] Rowan: Yeah. We don’t have to yell no. At people. You don’t have to be like. No screw you. Like, I mean, or the equivalent. You know, I know that people say no is a full sentence and that is true.

No is a full sentence, but we can wrap it in a nice bow and sometimes that, you know, we don’t have to, but in particular situations it can be, the nice thing to do. It can be the kind thing to do. It can also be a way to. Create opportunities down the road to work together. So in that case, maybe I really like this organization.

I love what they do. But yeah, my schedule’s full. I cannot take on another freebie because I have to pay the bills. But we can now keep an open dialogue if I answer that way. And then if they need something, maybe they need something in a few months where I just do a quick Instagram reel or something and you know, I promote them that way Or maybe something comes up down the road and they’re like, oh, we have a bit of budget this year and now we can pay you to come out and do this. That’s great. Right. But I think that I could just say, no, sorry, I can’t. But that would end the conversation there. I mean, yes, I can do that, absolutely.

And in some situations that would be appropriate.

[00:23:40] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:40] Rowan: But I do think that there is room for, I can’t right now, maybe later.

[00:23:47] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:47] Rowan: If that is true, I don’t believe in saying that to just kind of push off saying no, because it’s too uncomfortable to say no. So. If you don’t really mean that, don’t say it

[00:23:59] Lara: a hundred percent agree.

Yeah, because then you’re just putting off this problem till later. You’re gonna just have to keep dealing with it. And now you are not being particularly kind to that other person because they think you may want to do it. ,. Like there are certainly times right with, let me think about it, or, I might be able to do that later.

Is leaving another person hanging. And so just like with, you know, when I say boundaries is good for everybody, if I say I’m not gonna be able to do that, then that person has the opportunity to find somebody else instead of dangling along this thing that you never have the intention of saying yes to.

[00:24:36] Rowan: Exactly, exactly. And the other thing about boundaries is that they help us have a better relationship with other people because we’re being more authentic. This is something I really, really wish I remembered the YouTube video that I got this from, but I was watching YouTube videos on boundaries way back when I was writing my last book, one Sunny Afternoon, and I have a chapter in it called Boundaries for Days because I was trying to explain how important boundaries are to mental health because they really, really are important.

But one of the things that somebody had said, and it hit me like a ton of bricks, and I ended up writing about it in my book, was that when we are people pleasing, and I say this in the way of not setting boundaries, I’m just saying yes to everything and being super agreeable, we’re not being authentic.

We’re not being authentic people because in that moment, I’m just doing this to make you happy. That’s not really who I am, and if I wanna build a real relationship with you, if I want you to see me for who I am, not just see me for the person that I think that you want in your life or you want to work with or you want, whatever it might be.

That is a very inauthentic thing. I’m not lying to you, but I’m certainly not showing you who I am.

[00:26:02] Lara: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:02] Rowan: And I have really come to a place in my own life where I want everybody that I work with in any capacity. You, Lara, as well, right? To know that this is the person I am. This is the person you’re recording a podcast with.

This is the person you’re friends with. This is. The real me as opposed to this is the me who records the podcast, however you wanna do it, when you wanna do it and just goes along with whatever it is that you want. Because that’s not really me. That’s just me trying to keep you around.

That’s not fair to me. And it’s also not fair to you because at some point I’m going to hit my wall, I will get tired, I will get resentful, I will get whatever it is, and then. We’re gonna have a problem. Right? Whereas if we’re both really honest with each other and we talk about, like, this is how often

I can record a podcast. These are the topics I wanna talk about. No, I don’t really want to talk about that topic. I don’t really have any interest in it, or I don’t have a lot to say. If we’re honest and authentic and we’re able to comfortably say no to each other, we have a much better relationship and it flourishes.

But if I’m constantly bending to you or you’re constantly bending, to me, that is not a healthy relationship with long-term sustainability.

[00:27:23] Lara: So that’s kind of like between colleagues and like, that’s a lot of setting expectation, being real, coming up with plans, following through being true to yourself. So then there’s the other two dynamics, which is one, figuring out how to say no to a superior at work, for example. And the other one I see a lot is as small business owners not knowing how to say no to potential bad clients.

so these are two situations where it feels a lot harder to say no than somebody you know pretty well and you feel like you’re on equal footing with.

[00:27:57] Rowan: Sure. Because there’s a power dynamic there. There’s a power imbalance. You have a superior, we all know where that power dynamic lies, where they have more power than you.

And if it’s a client, well, I mean, not necessarily that they have more power than you, but this is someone who’s paying you money as well, right? So there is that as well. And they’re also somebody who could say, leave you a bad review that could affect your business. I mean, there’s all these different things and I think that is again, where we can wrap up a no in a kind way.

In a way that isn’t super blunt. Right. And I’m sure you have more advice on that, more suggestions than I do, because I’ve been very fortunate, I haven’t worked with a lot of bad clients and I also haven’t for a long time worked in, a nine to five job where I have had a superior. So I think you should just take this one.

[00:28:56] Lara: Okay, so let’s talk about dealing with, so a potential client. That’s a really hard one because if somebody comes to you and wants to hire you, it feels like no matter what it is they want, you should want to say yes because they want to give you money. And that seems like a no-brainer, but it’s not true.

[00:29:15] Rowan: Yeah.

[00:29:16] Lara: Not every client is a good client. Not every client is a good fit for you. Not every client is somebody who is actually gonna get the most out of working with you from your side of things. So a couple of examples where setting expectations can really help in those scenarios. One is, so a lot of the time what I do and what a lot of my clients do is they have like an intake form, right?

So if you want to book a call, you are gonna fill out. A questionnaire that gives me a little bit of information about who you are. And what I like to do is make sure that those questions give them enough information to self-select out if it doesn’t make sense, right? So if they think it’s gonna cost 50 bucks and it’s actually gonna cost a thousand bucks to work with you, you don’t wanna get on a call and be like, sorry, no, it’s a thousand dollars, not 50.

And if you set the right expectations. When they come to book, a call, either the form or just the page, everybody knows a little bit more what to expect, and then they decide whether they wanna move forward based on that. So you don’t actually have to say no if you’ve given people enough information to understand what’s coming.

[00:30:19] Rowan: That’s great.

[00:30:21] Lara: The same can be true with things like expectations of how quickly somebody’s gonna get back to you. So if somebody expects that anytime they wanna talk to you, they can pick up the phone and they’re gonna get to talk to you Immediately, but you have set the expectation that if they want to talk to you, they’re gonna have to book a call online.

That might be one thing. It could be that when you send an email, there is an autoresponder that comes right back immediately that says, thank you for your email. I have received it. I will get back to you within one to two business days. And so now the expectation isn’t that they’re sitting there being like, okay, within 10 minutes I should get a response.

They know. That the expectation is one to two days. They don’t have to call you and get mad at you and you have to say, no, that’s not how it works. You’ve told them ahead of time the expectation is set, and that can really help people because if they think they’re supposed to get a response within an hour and they don’t get one for two days, then they’re going to be mad.

If they know two days is the expectation. Maybe they wanna ask for an exception and then they can go ahead and ask for an exception. Then they know they’re asking for an exception. They don’t assume that was what was supposed to happen in the first place. Setting expectations and laying it out there, It isn’t even about setting a boundary. It really is just saying like, this is how it works. We’ve spent time thinking about it. This is what we have the ability to do. And then it takes so much of the tension out of these things that could pop up. And not only does it set the right expectations, but if somebody tries to do something different, you can refer back to the thing you clearly said to them in the first place.

[00:31:58] Rowan: It is very much like just setting expectations is kind of like setting these nice little parameters. Even if you don’t wanna call them boundaries, you can call ’em nice little parameters around the relationship. Sometimes we forget that. Every interaction we have with other human beings is in itself a relationship.

If you’re gonna be interacting more than once, , if it’s a client, if it is, a boss, if it is, a friend, whoever it is, like these are all relationships. And so setting those parameters around business relationships, that is a wonderful way to start things. It also just relaxes them as well, I think.

Right. So it’s like, I know for example, when I have had a therapist and my therapist when we meet for the first time, tells me everything about cancellation policies and confidentiality and , whatever it might be. Like all these, you know is it appropriate to email? Is it appropriate to text?

. I know exactly what it is right away that I’m getting into. And then I can go, okay, now I know where the line is. And we can build that relationship around that. that’s such a healthy way to do things

[00:33:12] Lara: as a coach, and a lot of other business owners, when I’ve laid it out like that, if they want more, I can potentially say, well.

Maybe it’s time for us to move to the package where you have this access to me. Maybe it’s time for us to do this thing where we get it done faster, but it costs a bit more money. Right? Because you have what the original expectation is, and if you’re saying, I, hear you want something different, I understand and you have the capacity to do it.

Again, I’m not saying. do it anyway. But if you actually do have, you know, a different package, if you do have a different level, if you do have something like, well, I can get this done faster, but it does have a little bit of an additional cost, it’s all laid out for you to refer to. You’re not making any of this up on the spot you’ve thought it through, and you can refer to different things for different reasons.

[00:34:02] Rowan: Yeah, I mean, you see that with personal trainers, for example, where they’re like, okay, if you just want a nutrition plan and, I just meet you at the gym once and get you started, it’s this much. But if you want me to meet you at the gym three times a week and write you out a meal plan that isn’t just, you know, the nutrients you should eat every day, now we’re moving into this like I can do it.

But it’s going to cost you more because it’s more of my time and energy. And being presented with these different options is wonderful. It’s wonderful. And again, you set those expectations right from the start, and if somebody starts to expect more than what you’ve agreed upon, it is much easier to say no to that because you’ve already established what those boundaries are.

[00:34:50] Lara: So let’s talk about now with your superior or your boss, which admittedly I haven’t worked in a regular setting with a boss for like almost 20 years. But, I do know that part of it again, is talking to people in terms of what is going to work best for you, right? If you want the best work on this project from me, right?

If you want me to do a really good job. It’s going to take this for me if you also ask me to do this, either both are gonna be a little bit less good or you need to change some deadlines or something. And I understand again, we come back to this whole situation sometimes you like you don’t have a choice, you have to keep working in a place where the demands are unreasonable.

And I understand like that sucks. if you can start to ask for things in a way that feels like it’s benefiting the employer too, that can be one way to go about things. Just clearly explaining. I’m not trying to be, again, contrary or I don’t want to, but it’s like this is why. This is what’s gonna work best.

This is what I believe and. How can we work together to figure out the best solution,

[00:36:05] Rowan: right? And, and also being able to say things like, I want to give you the best of what I can give you, but if you put me on too many projects, I’m not going to be able to do that. and if it is really important that I’m on these three projects.

Okay. But just know I’m only one person and I’m only going to be able to give so much to any one project, you know, so if you put me on three, you’re going to get a third of me on each. and I think thatSetting those expectations really early can be great too with a boss and let them know, like, you know, I work best when I work on one thing, or I work best when I get to spread my time amongst a lot of things so I don’t get bored.

[00:36:49] Rowan: but when it comes to, you know,your boss then pulling you in and saying, okay, now,I want you to work on these two extra things. You can say, okay, so you may remember that when I first started working here, that I work best when I work on one thing. is there a way that we can limit how much I’m working on these two other things if I have to work on them?

there are definitely sometimes no is no, and sometimes no has to be, you know, Somewhere in the middle perhaps. Does that make sense?

[00:37:20] Lara: Yeah. And I will say this, many, many, many of my clients are people who eventually said, I need to leave this workplace and open a business of my own so that I can change how things are happening.

Because hustle, culture and toxic workplaces are a thing, unreasonable expectations. Are a thing. Wanting to do things differently is also a thing, and it’s not for everybody, but there are people who are either starting their own business and doing things differently, or people who have started businesses that other people can go work for that are doing things differently and some of what.

I hope comes from the conversations we have in this podcast is people thinking about things differently and knowing that overall some things do need to change. The status quo is not working in a lot of ways, and we want to talk about the ways that overall some things can change.

[00:38:19] Rowan: It is one of those things where I’m going to come back to, uh,class solidarity for a moment.

class solidarity is something that I have been thinking of a lot lately, but it comes down to this.

We are being expected to do a lot more with less these days. And if all of us collectively. Decide that we’re going to say no to that things will change because the people at the top, whoever those people are, and you can take that any way you’d like. But there are people who operate at a very different class than most of us, and they make a lot of these rules.

They set a lot of these expectations, but they are very, very few. Compared to the rest of us. So if we, and I’ve seen actually younger millennials and Gen Z have been setting much stronger boundaries around their time and they’re like, no, I will not be working after five. No, I will not be taking on more than I can handle.

Yeah, I would actually rather earn a little less and go work for this smaller company or start my own business because I don’t wanna deal with that because I watched my parents burnout. I watched their marriage fall apart. I watched my dad be on antidepressants for 20 years because he couldn’t handle his job.

It was killing him every day. Right. they’ve watched the older generation that’s us and older do that. And they don’t want it anymore. So I think right now is a really good time for us all to really consider what our boundaries are, what we want to say yes to, and what we need to say yes to, and what we can say no to.

Because if we do that collectively we will change things.

[00:40:06] Lara: Absolutely. We’re gonna change the conversation. These younger millennials, gen Z, They’re causing angst for some people who are like, I don’t understand. I don’t understand why they’re not doing this, why they’re not doing that. But I don’t disagree with what they’ve decided to do.

And as a result, there are some things that are having to change from how they used to be. And so I completely agree with you when more people are doing one thing than not. People are gonna have to adjust. And so I hope conversations like this do first of all, help people feel a little bit better about the ways you can say no, but also remind people that we are entitled to say no to things that are bad for us.

[00:40:51] Rowan: Including school field trips, because let me tell you, taking a bunch of kids to the Museum of Civilization and two of them running off giggling to play hide and seek is not fun. So really think about that. That’s my advice.

[00:41:06] Lara: I completely agree, and that is why I never did them.

Thank you everybody for joining us today. Please come and visit our substack. Tell us if there are places that you struggle saying no. Tell us if there are ways that you’ve said no, that were easier than you expected them to be. If you have scripts that work, we wanna hear all of it because I think this conversation can continuing.

It’s really important for people.

[00:41:32] Rowan: Absolutely. And I’m just going to plug it, if you have. Five seconds in your day and you like this podcast, can you go and rate it? ’cause we are brand new baby podcasters and we would love to get some feedback. Thank you.

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