“Politics and religion: the two things we don’t discuss in polite society.”

If you’re like us, this has been drilled into your head for a lifetime. And as many family members and friends begin to gather for the holidays, a large number will purposely avoid discussing either of these hot button topics for fear of starting conflict. Who wants an argument with Uncle Rick? It’s best to just stick to sports, right?

But there’s a big problem: NOT talking about politics (or religion, as the two are often intertwined these days) with those in our lives has created an even larger divide, sowed misinformation, and led us to the frightening place we are today. Look at the memes, the comments, the virtual shouting matches we see on social media every day. This is what happens when we go to our respective silos and never really talk in person about what matters to us with the people who matter to us.

Want another reason to believe it’s time to ditch this tired societal rule? By keeping everyone in their respective corners, the powers that be—and yes, there are plenty of them to point fingers at no matter where you fall on the political spectrum—are able to maintain a certain level of control over our society. They don’t want us talking to each other.

But don’t take our word for it; this has been happening throughout history. Today is merely another moment where the same playbook is repeating itself.

On this episode, Rowan and Lara share why they believe these taboo topics—especially politics—need to see the light of day. Rowan, in particular, has some pretty big feelings about it as a trans man. The more we communicate, and the more we strive to understand one another and our common struggles, the better off we’ll all be.

How do you feel about discussing hot topics with those you love? We want to hear about it! Drop us a line or leave us a comment.

And as always, thanks for listening.

Links

Lara makes art – follow her on Instagram

Rowan is opening a coffee shop – follow it on Youtube

Transcript

(These were autogenerated and have not been edited)

[00:00:00] Lara: this is why conversations are good, but also difficult that I imagine they feel just as strongly that they’re correct as I feel that I’m correct. And it would be a big conversation to have people meet more in the middle.

[00:00:37] Rowan: Hey, welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.

[00:00:41] Lara: And I’m Lara.

[00:00:42] Rowan: And it is episode 30, Lara,

[00:00:45] Lara: which blows my mind. it was a big deal when we got to episode eight. but we still have things to talk about.

[00:00:52] Rowan: I’m amazed by us. We actually chat usually for like a full hour before we record these.

So this is us after we get all of our small talk outta the way, which is saying something.

[00:01:04] Lara: Yeah. And a little bit of the, you know, we are gonna pull our thoughts together instead of just like randomly talking without any forethought. So there is a little bit of forethought to what we say.

[00:01:18] Rowan: Yeah. Unless we have a guest and that’s pre-planned, we know somebody’s coming on to talk about something specific.

We often spend that hour catching up and then deciding what feels right for us to talk about quite often, like we have this little list and we’re like, yeah, we had this idea and this idea, and we bounce this idea off each other. What do you really feel like talking about? And I have a topic that is really top of mind for me right now.

I think it’s going to ruffle some feathers and, and that’s okay. I am willing for you to come at me about this episode and about my feelings on it because I think this idea really needs to be challenged for some very important reasons societally and also personally, and that is, there is this idea that in polite society.

We should not discuss politics with friends and family because we might disagree on them, and I take issue with this. I’m going to get into why I take issue with this. There are some really big feelings for me about this, so I’m going to try and be very measured and polite.

[00:02:36] Lara: But also, ‘cause I think this is what part of this comes down to, is you don’t always need to be measured and polite when you’re talking about things that you care about.

And I think that the desire to keep everybody feeling okay and calm and steady, means that some big conversations never get to happen. That should happen.

[00:02:58] Rowan: It’s often the elephant in the room. And I think right now when we are seeing these huge political shifts, we’re in Canada and I am almost 50 years old.

I have watched a lot of changes over the years, but one thing I did not think that I would ever see in my lifetime in North America. Was the rise of fascism. And as a human rights advocate, I am stating there is no question that what is happening right now in America is fascism.

Fascism is taking over. It is a playbook that was seen in many other places most recently, I would say. We know a lot about World War II Germany, pre-World War II Germany, and that’s now being played out, you know, an hour from me, in another country. It’s really hard to witness. I think a lot of us feel that way in Canada and.

Yet, even in Canada as well as a lot of other countries, we are seeing right-wing political parties, not just being small C Conservative anymore, but being big C Conservative.

And. Using the same playbook, the same talking points, the same everything to try and gain a foothold here. And what appears to be, in my opinion, and in a lot of people’s opinions, do the same thing in Canada as much as they can.

So. I have a real problem. I mean, I always have, but now I really have a problem with the idea of having to censor myself and for others having to censor themselves around friends, around family who might be thinking of voting that way or who do vote that way, who subscribe to those beliefs, or giving into this type of pre fascism propaganda.

Being told that I have to not talk about it, tone it down. This can have devastating consequences because we’re seeing that unfold south of the border here in Canada. We’re seeing that unfold in the us So I don’t think now is the time as we go into the holiday season, this is not the holiday dinner.

Where you keep your mouth shut about that stuff.

[00:05:27] Lara: Yeah. I mean, I think this also speaks to the fact that

we have these bubbles, right? So there are times when I think there’s no chance that something can happen, right? There’s no chance a certain political party is going to be voted in in your province again.

Um, because my bubble. Would never

[00:05:48] Rowan: Yep.

[00:05:49] Lara: But if also we are not talking to people who are not of the same mindset, we have no idea just how differently we speak. Years ago, and this is going back, a decade I’ve been a business owner for 18 years now. And certainly the idea of never bringing politics or anything super controversial into your business was like, you never talk about that stuff because you don’t want to have any customers go away.

And as a business coach for years, I’ve said, actually I am perfectly fine with putting my values out there and what I think, because I don’t really wanna work with people who don’t. Feel that way, right? If they are so unaligned with me, it’s fine if they go away. And my end goal is never just make as much money as I can.

I wanna have a good working relationship with people. and as a result, I have s previously other people would’ve said, don’t ever say that as a business owner. And I’ve been totally okay with that.

[00:06:56] Rowan: We met at a business conference no. Wait, I think we met at a blogging thing, didn’t we?

[00:07:02] Lara: I first learned of you. I don’t think we met that day. I just became a fan at that blogging event. So when you recall meeting me is probably more accurate because like I said, I was just reading your blog. Before that, so I knew you more than you knew me.

[00:07:20] Rowan: Well, now I know you pretty well.

And I’m glad I do. But we, , met, met, I think, and really connected at a business conference. And then I remember when you approached me and said, Hey Rowan, I think that what you do, you always say you don’t wanna make money at it, but If you wanna do it full time and be able to feed your family.

Did you know it’s okay to make money supporting other people and educating people? And maybe we should talk about it. And I remember we went out for lunch and you were the person who convinced me that I could do this for a living. And I’m very grateful for that. But also, your. Beliefs, your openness, your sense of inclusion, your commitment to diversity, all of those things were what drew me to you.

So you being open about who you are and what you’re all about, you’re right. It, certainly attracted the right clients because I became your client before I became your friend.

[00:08:18] Lara: and a couple of things you said there. One is the whole. Extremes of how people feel about things, right?

So if I care about this, I shouldn’t make money. I only wanna make money seem to be the extremes. And I’m like, why don’t we find like a nice little middle ground where you don’t just care about money, but you also, uh, make enough money to live? Like what about that?

And yeah, I had an aha a few months ago, I used to always say, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Simon Sinek and Find Your Why I was like, my why it’s community. Mine is community. Which you know, isn’t untrue. But also I realized a few months ago that my real why is helping people find spaces where they feel safe. And I don’t know where that came from, but I am always inclined to talk about how we need to help more people feel safe.

And I don’t think some of the people who get really upset and angry are feeling unsafe. They’re just like angry, right? Like the people I wanna help are the ones who feel like nobody’s on their side, who feel like nobody understands who they are, who feel like they’re different somehow. And then that means they can never be part of things.

And therefore I don’t see how I could ever be anything other than very left-leaning,

and I’m willing to talk about it.

[00:09:44] Rowan: And that is where the problem

lies because I think to me. Right now I’m not talking. Historically, there are people who have voted conservative many, many years ago, and I think that was a different thing than it is now.

When somebody tells me that they are staunchly a conservative voter, it scares me. It actually gives me fear in my gut. And the reason for that is because the federal Conservative party here, as well as the Republicans in the US and a lot of other conservative leaning politicians around the world right now are targeting people who are not like them.

So I am both, white. I have family from the uk. I’m also indigenous, but I present very white. So I don’t deal with any racism and I can’t speak to that. But I can speak to being transgender and right now people are using my community to. Incite fear and anger and disgust in their voter base.

they tell lies about us. They use a ton of misinformation, disinformation. I will say the difference between disinformation and misinformation, ‘cause you’ve probably heard both, is that disinformation knows it’s a lie and it is created. To tell a narrative it’s, used for propaganda misinformation is when you learn that disinformation or get something wrong that is proper information and you share that, not knowing that that is wrong.

So what I hear from a lot of people is misinformation. That they got from disinformation campaigns put out by politicians who are usually right-leaning. So it is no longer about things like small business or property taxes or industry or smaller government, like that’s not what conservative means to me anymore.

What it means is. That you wanna get rid of people like me and you wanna get rid of people who have brown skin or black skin, or you want to get rid of immigrants, you want to take away women’s rights. Like that is the messaging. That is occurring. So it’s not so much, oh, my uncle votes conservative and my dad votes liberal or something like that.

Right. And they just don’t talk about it because they’re just gonna have a debate about taxes. No, no, no. This now has become, somebody wants to take away the rights of a whole bunch of people and. Another party does not want to do that. And human rights to me, because we are human beings, should always be top of mind.

[00:12:49] Lara: Yeah. I completely agree with that and I think it has gotten to be so much more than how much money do we spend on what? although some of that money is on spending on things like. Welfare, like how much money do we put in to help with housing and how much do we think people need to take care of themselves?

Which is where, to me it comes back to values versus anything else. And I I have a really hard time understanding people thinking. But that’s my money when the alternative is people suffering I can hear it like, I’m saying it? And it sounds very biased in some ways, right? Like, I’m like staunchly here, but I still think it’s true.

But It’s a tricky thing to do and , I think having conversations about it is important. I think that some of the things that people are scared of is because they don’t know about it. They don’t have any kind of humanization to it. If you have never met somebody who is trans. It might feel like, uh, I don’t know.

Right? Like, I don’t want it to feel like that, but like society has kind of created a situation where we have been taught to think of it that way. And that’s why I think the work that you’ve done has been so important because we’re, talking about people. We’re not talking about something weird.

We’re talking about human beings who are just.

Being themselves and I think there are so many different variations of being yourself, but ultimately I want everybody to be able to just be themselves. And I am feeling emotional talking about this. Like I can’t understand. Not being okay with that.

But I also think, and this isn’t

politics, I don’t know, it’s all meshed up together now, isn’t it?

[00:14:42] Rowan: It is. That’s the problem.

[00:14:44] Lara: It’s that I think, I don’t know. I think that some of this is about control. There are people who are out there trying to control, and there are some people who really and truly believe that.

It is better for society and for specific human beings to do things the way that we’ve been told it’s supposed to be like they truly think. It’s not that I’m trying to just be in control and not lose my power, like I think it’s better for you to just be what we told you to be.

[00:15:16] Rowan: Yeah.

[00:15:17] Lara: And I don’t agree with that either, but like I do think some people are coming at it from a place of like, I think this is right.

Like, I’m not trying to be mean, I’m not trying to be this, I’m just, I’m pretty sure this is right. And recognize, and this is why conversations are good, but also difficult that I imagine they feel just as strongly that they’re correct as I feel that I’m correct. And it would be a big conversation to have people meet more in the middle.

[00:15:46] Rowan: Definitely social media has created larger divides. It’s put us into these silos. You talked about bubbles earlier, and it’s true. We have these social bubbles. Social media has made it worse though, because now we have.

these echo chambers where I know, for example, a bunch of trans people who do a lot of what I do and they go online and they share their lives and they try to humanize us as you know, the humans. We are having this more unique or less common, I should say, experience. And that there’s nothing to fear and there’s nothing weird about it.

It’s just who we are, and they’re open to questions and they’re really fantastic. some of them do a way better job than I do at reaching a whole bunch of people. The problem is that. A lot of the people that we are all reaching are people who think exactly like us anyway. Because the algorithms have it set up where you are going to see what it is that you engage with.

And so in my case, when people respond to me, it tends to be people who either think exactly like me anyway. Maybe they’re more like you, where they’re not trans themselves. They wanna learn, but they have an open heart and mind, and they’re willing to take the plunge and learn some more. Or you also have.

People who get that content because they engage with it hatefully all the time.

Some of them are bots for sure. We know that the internet is currently overrun with bots, and the bots are created to sow discord and further that divide. Again, that’s not me saying it. You can go look at the science behind it.

They are designed. There’s some that are built to the right. There’s some that are built to the left, and they are created to make it so that we don’t talk to each other. All we do is throw insults at each other. So that is why it is so important that we’re able to have these conversations in person.

First of all, if you have a conversation in person. With somebody who may not agree with you, you’re far less likely to have a screaming match and call each other names about it. You’re far more likely to look at the human in front of you, who you probably have an established relationship with, who you might even love as a human being, as a member of your family, as somebody you went to high school with, whoever it might be.

And you can have that conversation with them and they’ll be like. That’s Rowan. I know Rowan. I know Rowan’s not a bad person. I know Rowan doesn’t think I’m a bad person. We just see things differently and maybe because I like Rowan and I respect him, I will be more inclined to listen to him. I’m gonna keep an open mind.

and then for me be like, oh Larry, I don’t know. I’m just making somebody up right now. Larry seems like maybe the guy who I would think would maybe be small C Conservative who’s voted conservatives his whole life. You know, maybe he runs a farm and he really cares about farmers’ rights, which I do too, by the way.

So now he gets to see that we care about farmers’ rights and he doesn’t have an issue with L-G-B-T-Q people. He really doesn’t. And he loves his daughters and he wants them to grow up safe and happy and , everything else. But he votes in this way because this matters to him. And maybe I say, Hey, Larry, but because you’re voting for this particular party.

They also wanna take away my rights and these are the rights they want to take away. And Larry goes, oh my God, I didn’t even see that in the platform. What, what do you mean? Right. And now Larry learned something. I also learned that people who vote conservative , aren’t all out to get me through that conversation.

He actually just had no idea. This is why we need to be talking to each other and not being told it is impolite.

[00:19:46] Lara: Yes. And I think some of it can be done nicely.

I don’t know what the right word is, right? Like we’re not talking about , I am going to be in a room and I’m gonna start shouting at you that you’re a bigot and you’re hate.

Like it’s not necessarily about that. , Again, you can humanize issues very calmly with storytelling. I hope that I am open to hearing other points, like I think I am. I try to be open to hearing other people’s points of views. I’m not. Necessarily going to agree with you, but I wanna hear, right?

Like I wanna hear a little bit more from other people, and I know for a fact that I have helped other people understand things that they just didn’t understand before because I started talking about it and then they started asking questions. I would say, even from your first book, Rowan, I had many conversations where people were like, but what about this?

Does this mean that? And it’s like, please ask me. Like I don’t want you to go up to a trans person and like batter them with all these questions that they’ve heard a million times. And I don’t necessarily know all the answers, but I have learned enough and read enough to get you partway there. And I think that that has helped people just as a general understanding.

Of what it means to be more inclusive and to not judge people for making different decisions than they do. I think some of the conversations have been around, it’s okay if you don’t understand. You don’t need to understand other people all the time. You just need to know that it’s okay to not understand people and just when they tell you something about themselves.

You just say, okay, I believe you.

I don’t need to understand it. I can’t understand what it feels like to be somebody completely different than I am. Like I can’t embody that and be like, aha, now I understand it. I don’t need to because I just know. That who I am feels very true.

And if I told you and you said, nah, I wouldn’t like that either.

[00:21:56] Rowan: Exactly, I had a friend, this is way back about 10 years or so, there was an election. I was going to vote for a more left-leaning party and she was gonna vote for the one at the time, right-leaning party. And I said to her, and we are having breakfast, we had breakfast every week together.

lovely person. Very, very supportive of my family, my family that has trans people in it. Very supportive of queer people in general and. I said to her, you know, voting for that party means a vote against my family. , You’re voting against our rights. Because they very clearly have shown that they do not support our rights and have villainized this a fair bit.

And she said, I understand what you’re saying and I don’t wanna do that. At the same time, I’m looking at the tax platforms for both of these parties, and these were the only two parties that had stood a chance to win in our immediate area at the time. And she said, my family has a small business and it is really struggling right now, and the party that I’m voting for.

Has better tax incentives. They’re not going to up the tax on us. They’re gonna give us a bit of a break. This is what they’re promising. And that might be the only way that I can leave a legacy for my children.

And you know, this is where nuance comes in, right? Because she didn’t have a bad bone in her body really.

I still think that, and I’m going with , this is a deliberate use of words. I still think that human rights trump tax breaks.

But I also understood the fear that she was dealing with and she did end up voting in that way. And I ended up voting in my way. And, you know, the outcome was what it was.

It hurt. To know that that’s what she put first. But also at the same time, I understood where she was financially and what she was dealing with. And this is the thing, right, because she’s a human being at that point. She’s not this person behind a keyboard. This stranger, I don’t know who’s championing party that.

I am afraid of, she is a person making a decision that she feels is the best one for her family. So I am not here to say that everyone who doesn’t vote like me is wrong. I’m not close-minded enough for that. I won’t do that. I will not say that everybody who votes a certain way that is not like me is somehow evil and doesn’t care about.

People who are marginalized. I don’t necessarily think that’s true. I think there are some people, certainly, right, we’ve seen it, who really don’t care about anybody who isn’t exactly like them. But I do think that fear plays a big part. Here’s the other thing though. I wanna talk about privilege, and I know some people are going to roll their eyes, but privilege is a very real thing.

Like I said earlier, my father was indigenous anishinabe, and my mother is of UK descent. I. Was born with the palest skin you’ve ever seen in your life to the point where his family was like, are you sure this is his baby? Mm-hmm. Yes, I’m his baby.

But

it’s a whole funny story around that.

but yeah, I mean that’s the way genetics go sometimes, and I do not walk around ever having to experience racism in my life. That is a privilege. It does not mean my life isn’t hard in other ways. I’m trans., I lived on the streets when I was younger. I dealt with addiction.

Like I’ve had all kinds of things. I didn’t get a high school diploma until my late thirties. So many ways that I dealt with, a harder hand and other ways where I was quite privileged. I think that when somebody says it’s impolite to talk about politics. That comes from privilege, my friends. It does. Because your existence, in most of those cases, I can’t say all of those cases, but I don’t know everyone’s story. But in most cases of people that I’ve seen, and I lived in, very white suburbia for a long time. what I’ve seen is that the people who say that tend to have the least fear of their rights being taken away by politicians.

I need you to know that every single time. My province goes to the polls, my country goes to the polls, or I watch another country that we tend to mirror politically, go to the polls. I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I am anxious as all get out because the rights of myself, of my child, who was non-binary.

Of other people I care about who are black or brown, who are disabled, who are women, you know, who are children, whatever it might be. Anyone who’s kind of on the margins. Our rights are often on the table, every single election, whether you realize it or not, whether you have read that in the platform or not, whether you have watched all of their interviews.

Because let me tell you, I watch everything closely. I listen to the sound bites, and I also listen to the whole interviews, and I read the interviews and I read the platforms. But if you don’t have to do that, and it’s just as easy as you go, oh, I really like so and so, and they’ve been running in our area for years.

So I just keep voting for them, not realizing that their political party that they’re affiliated with has gone further and further and further down the road of anti-human rights or whatever it might be. God, that’s privilege. I envy you. But I also really wish you could see it, and when I bring up privilege, I tend to get slammed so hard again.

People think that when I say someone is privileged, they’ve never had hardship in their lives. That is not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is you have had enough privilege in your life that you don’t have to be afraid every election.

[00:28:13] Lara: Yeah. I have a lot of privilege. and I try to acknowledge it often, and I agree.

There are a lot of people who don’t want to hear that because it makes them feel like, am I supposed to feel bad about that? I was like, well, it’s not about feeling bad about it, it’s about acknowledging that you’re coming from a different place. It’s about understanding that your experience is not everybody’s experience.

So we’re coming right back around to, we’re all different. And a lot of people don’t like to think that we’re all different. They want to sort of have this one way. We’re all supposed to be this way. We’re all equal. Everything’s the same. The only thing different might be how hard I work. Oh, yeah. yeah, it’s tough.

I think. Ultimately the whole, I don’t want to talk about it, is sometimes out fear. There’s certainly, some people coming back to social media that I’ve not gotten rid of, who I know are not in the same camp as me, and I’m trying to not make my bubble smaller and sort of be aware of other points of view, but I don’t often.

Jump into it. ‘cause I don’t wanna like have a big fight. Like I don’t want to, but sometimes I do. And I think it’s important , to sort of understand where other people are coming from or at least see it, right? Like,, I don’t understand. I don’t understand why a lot of Canadians with small businesses think that it’s our government’s fault that it’s really hard.

To ship to the US right now. Like it is not our government’s fault. The tariffs were not us. And I don’t think that it was just a matter of some simple conversation from the Canadian government that would’ve made that go away. Like, I don’t know what you think is happening that you’re blaming our government for this, but I’m trying to see where people are coming from.

And I understand that for a lot of the people saying that it’s because. Their income has been slashed and they’re scared. I still don’t understand why they’re laying the blame where it goes. But I think having conversations help us at least understand that some people are going in a certain direction because of fear, not because of anger, not because of

hate, and also.

I think just like you were saying

before, in the end, which thing trumps what and why? And having conversations about that and understanding where you’re coming from is important. So having the conversations helps us understand other people. It helps us maybe understand beyond the propaganda where other people are

actually coming from.

I don’t know if it’s gonna change anything, but I don’t think we should hide from it because what’s happening is too big and important to ignore.

[00:30:56] Rowan: They don’t want us talking to each other again. This is not me pulling that out of thin air. If you look at the creation of these bots and the way algorithms work on social media, who controls that social media, what their very open now political affiliations are, et cetera. You arrive, I think, very logically at the idea that.

Keeping us in two wildly separate camps is the way it is. Very much when we talk about it’s not polite to talk about politics, the add-on to that is, and religion, right? Like this is always what people talk about. But again, I am not bashing religion. I’m a very, spiritual person myself.

I’m not of any particular faith, but I did grow up Catholic. My family is Catholic, and so I do not take an issue at all with individual faiths, whatsoever. A lot of organized religion over time, and if you talk to historians and people who’ve studied religion, they will tell you this.

A lot of the changes that were done, a lot of the dogma that is, instilled by religious organizations has been about control and one of those ways to keep control. Keep your flock, if you will, doing this exact thing. Keep that flock over there. Doing that exact thing, is to make it so that your religion is the only religion.

It’s the only one that matters. It’s the only right one. And that other people’s religions, are bad, evil, sinful, whatever it might be, right? I mean, that’s sort of the way it’s always worked. That’s why so many wars have been steeped in religion. Talking to each other, having people have conversations about their own faiths or lack thereof, whatever it might be.

In kind and accepting and respectful ways, understanding that someone else’s beliefs are just as important to them as my own. We get to learn about each other. That way we get to understand each other. So this idea that you should not talk about religion. I mean there are sometimes workplace laws and guidelines, and I’m not talking about that right now.

I’m talking about social settings and family settings. I think. If you’re Catholic, the more you talk to someone who’s Muslim, you start to realize that Muslims aren’t evil or vice versa, right? But when it’s like, oh no, we don’t talk about religion, we don’t discuss that stuff, then you never get to learn that somebody else is just as happy where they are as you are with where you are.

And that there are far more similarities in a lot of these religions than there are differences Again. We all need to be talking to each other about the things we have been told not to talk to each other about. I think this is key to healing society.

[00:33:49] Lara: I think that’s my biggest takeaway from this conversation is remembering they don’t want us talking to each other, so if there’s anything to take away, it is we need to talk to each other

[00:34:01] Rowan: and that also.

Means to me, if you are someone who does not think the way we do, and you wanna say, Hey, you two got this wrong. Let me tell you why I vote the way I do. Let me tell you why I do things the way I do. We’d actually love to hear from you, like I am really open to having conversations with people, and if you wanna come on and have a conversation with us, I’m not a debater, I’m not gonna debate somebody.

I don’t think that’s a productive use of my time and energy, but I would love to talk to you. And see where you’re coming from. I think this is a really healthy thing. And no, we will not be entertaining any bigotry, just so we are very clear. Bigotry is off the table of any kind. But if you wanna say, Hey, this is why I do what I do and this is why I feel the way I feel.

Absolutely. Drop us a line, send us a comment, tell us you wanna chat with us, we’ll chat

[00:34:57] Lara: please. Do we have, uh.At least another 30 episodes to keep making. Right.

[00:35:02] Rowan: I cannot believe we made it to 30. I’m so proud of us, my friend.

[00:35:07] Lara: I know. It’s awesome. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:35:10] Rowan: Yeah. And please get in touch and let us know what you think of this episode.

Do us a favor too. If you are listening to this on a podcasting app of some kind, go and rate us. It really helps us a lot and it lets us know how we’re doing.

[00:35:23] Lara: And tell all your friends about us,

[00:35:25] Rowan: tell all your friends, and have a really, really wonderful day.

[00:35:29] Lara: Thank you.

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