Episode Description

In this compelling conversation, Dave speaks with Florian Irminger about his journey from high-visibility political leadership to behind-the-scenes human rights advocacy, and what he calls the “Global Realignment” we’re all navigating. This episode explores how leaders can pivot from old ways of working to meet unprecedented challenges, why admitting “I don’t know” is becoming essential leadership, and how human rights work is at the leading edge of what we all need to learn to thrive in this new world.

Guest Bio: Florian Irminger

Florian Irminger is the founder of Progress & Change Action Lab, an advisory group dedicated to supporting organizations and institutions navigating complex social and political transformations. Following his tenure as Secretary-General of the Swiss Green Party, Florian made the conscious decision to step back from high-visibility political leadership to work behind the scenes, supporting others in creating meaningful change.

Inspired by Robert F. Kennedy’s words that “Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies,” Florian has dedicated his work to addressing what he calls the “Global Realignment”—fundamental shifts in our political, social, and human rights landscape.

Recently, Florian launched two significant initiatives: the Human Rights Compass, which brings together organizations beyond traditional branding to collaborate on key recommendations for addressing global challenges, and the Human Rights Index, launched in response to political and social media shifts.

Dave first met Florian when he was working at Human Rights House headquarters in Oslo, and later worked with him as he opened offices in Geneva and Brussels. They’ve maintained their connection as Florian’s career and life have evolved.

Episode Timeline & Key Themes

00:00 – 03:00: Opening & Origins

• Introduction and reflection on their 10+ year relationship since meeting at Human Rights House in Oslo
• The memorable story of humor as a mask – early coaching insight that stayed with Florian

03:00 – 07:40: The Personal Pivot

• Florian’s decision to step back from his own career to support his wife’s diplomatic career
• Moving from 250 emails a day to 10, but each with real value
• The luxury of being able to focus on what’s essential

07:40 – 12:54: From Public to Behind-the-Scenes Leadership

• Shifting from getting energy from public attention to finding nourishment in deeper work
• Creating breathing spaces for overwhelmed human rights CEOs
• The loneliness of leadership and the power of authentic connection

12:54 – 21:10: The Global Realignment

• How COVID revealed similarities between different sectors facing uncertainty
• The challenge for human rights CEOs in an increasingly hostile environment
• RFK’s insight: “Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies”
• Why the resistance isn’t to human rights values but to the change required

21:10 – 26:48: Working with “Angels” – The NGO Challenge

• Managing organizations full of well-intentioned, highly educated people who see themselves as “doing good”
• The difficulty when “angels” suddenly find themselves labeled as enemies
• The need for inward-looking organizational development, not just external solutions

26:48 – 34:02: The Compass Has Lost North

• Why traditional approaches no longer work in the current environment
• The image of a compass that’s lost its north – we need to learn to hold it differently
• How social recognition for human rights workers has disappeared in many places
• The question: “Where will these people find recognition now?”

34:02 – 38:04: From Classical Music to Jazz

• The need to stop having all the answers and start asking better questions
• Moving from classical music (well-written, well-played) to jazz (improvisation and listening)
• The challenge when “the paper the music is written on is burning”

38:04 – 43:10: Recognizing Readiness for Change

• How to identify when leaders are ready to change (hint: it’s not about tenure)
• The power of admitting uncertainty as an indicator of readiness
• The counterintuitive truth that vulnerability creates organizational strength

43:10 – 46:39: The 3AM Disquiet

• Why this is a moment for public leaders to be authentic about not knowing
• The parallel between Dave’s coaching work and Florian’s policy work
• How both are seeing similar patterns across different sectors

46:39 – 52:00: Working Between Organizations

• The freedom and authenticity that comes from not being institutionally bound
• How COVID changed how people want to work – more connection to family, less institutional boundaries
• The future of human rights work: organizations adapting to individuals rather than vice versa

52:00 – 1:00:14: Navigating Crisis Fatigue

• The story of the 13-year-old who believed “we’re all going to burn”
• How we’ve been “exhausting the public” with constant crisis messaging
• The fear that continuous pressure will create numbness and loss of empathy in human rights workers

1:00:14 – 1:06:32: The Lost Decade

• Working with people who don’t have all the answers (the easy tell: if they say they do, they’re not ready)
• The regression of human progress indicators for the first time since 1945
• Why this decade (2020s) may be remembered as “the black hole decade”
• The hope that universal suffering will create unity across all sectors of society

1:06:32 – 1:11:54: Personal Navigation Strategies

• Florian’s shift from traditional meditation to playing saxophone as breathing/connection practice
• How the saxophone reveals his emotional state
• The importance of reading classic literature to gain a historical perspective
• Stepping back from the immediacy of social media and current events

1:11:54 – 1:16:31: Whispers from the Future

• The recognition that mental health support is needed but still stigmatized
• Faith that humanity is equipped to overcome this moment, as it has before
• The reminder that it takes only seconds to destroy what humanity builds over centuries
• “The pyramids are still standing.”

1:16:31 – 1:21:08: Closing Reflections

• The impact of stress on leadership capacity and judgment
• How people are reverting to more instinctive, animal-like reactions
• The importance of “getting the individuals right” for society to come together

Key Quotes

“I want to work with people that I like. So that is my new life journey – to value the family first, and value the people that I want to work with.”

“Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies.” – RFK

“We need to stop thinking that we have answers and learn better how to ask questions… We need to start playing jazz, because then we’re improvising and listening to each other.”

“I think admitting the uncertainty is, to me, an indicator of readiness to change.”

“We are really equipped to deal with all of this and to come together. I just don’t know who will be the ‘we’ and where it will happen and when.”

Resources Mentioned

• Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
• Human Rights Index: https://bsky.app/profile/humanrightsindex.bsky.social
• Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
• Books mentioned (authors to be provided): Norwegian author Gardner, French author Kavin Tree, Jean Claude Gibo

Connect with Florian

• Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
• Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org

Key Takeaways

1. The Power of the Pivot: Sometimes stepping back from visibility creates more authentic impact
2. Admitting “I Don’t Know”: In times of uncertainty, vulnerability becomes a leadership strength
3. From Answers to Questions: Moving from classical music to jazz – improvising and listening rather than following old scripts
4. The Global Realignment: We’re all navigating similar challenges across different sectors
5. Personal Navigation: Finding practices (like saxophone for breathing, classic literature for perspective) to maintain balance in chaos
6. Future Hope: Humanity has overcome difficult moments before and is equipped to do so again

This was a profound conversation about leadership, change, and hope in uncertain times. Perfect for anyone navigating their own pivot in work, leadership, or life.

My website:  www.daveschoof.com

Original music:  Phil Schoof

Production:  Phil Schoof