Are vaccines overrated?

In this episode of Saving the World from Bad Ideas, Mark Lynas speaks with Dr Seth Berkley, infectious disease epidemiologist, former CEO of Gavi, and co-founder of COVAX, about what the world got right and wrong during COVID-19. 

They discuss vaccine equity, pandemic preparedness, the politicisation of public health, and why the world remains dangerously vulnerable to future outbreaks. From the rapid development of mRNA vaccines to the rise of vaccine disinformation and the growing threat of H5N1 bird flu, this conversation is a sobering reminder that pandemics do not end just because societies stop wanting to talk about them.

🧠 Topics Discussed

• 🦠 Why societies so quickly try to forget pandemics, even when the threat has not fully passed

• 🔬 Whether the origin of COVID matters for future policy and lab safety

• 💉 How quickly the world developed COVID vaccines, and why that scientific achievement was extraordinary

• 🌍 Why COVAX was created, how it worked, and what it achieved

• 📦 The scale of vaccine nationalism and the human cost of hoarding

• ⚗️ How mRNA vaccines changed the speed and future of vaccine development

• 🧬 Why HIV remains one of the hardest viruses to vaccinate against

• 🐦 The pandemic potential of H5N1 bird flu and why it deserves more attention

• 📱 How social media, political polarisation, and public-health messaging failures fuelled vaccine hesitancy

• 🏛️ Why attacks on institutions such as WHO, CDC, and public science undermine future pandemic response

• 🚨 Why measles is resurging in countries that had once controlled it

• 🤝 Why global cooperation, advance funding, and trusted scientific institutions remain essential

👩‍🏫 Guest Bio

Dr Seth Berkley is an infectious disease epidemiologist and Adjunct Professor at the Pandemic Center at Brown University. He served as CEO of Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance, from 2011 to 2023, and was one of the co-founders of COVAX, the global effort to ensure equitable access to COVID-19 vaccines. He previously led the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative and has spent decades working at the intersection of global health, vaccine access, and epidemic preparedness. He is the author of Fair Doses: An Insider’s Story of the Pandemic and the Global Fight for Vaccine Equity.

📚 Recommended Reading & Resources

• Fair Doses: An Insider’s Story of the Pandemic and the Global Fight for Vaccine Equity by Dr Seth Berkley

• Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance

• COVAX

• CEPI (Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations)

• WHO Pandemic Accord / pandemic treaty process

• IAVI (International AIDS Vaccine Initiative)

💬 Quote Highlights

💬 “Vaccines are the most powerful public health technology [and] have led to the 40 year increase in life expectancy.” — Dr Seth Berkley

💬 “COVID isn’t over. We could have worse strains… and we need to learn the lessons from the previous one so we’re better prepared for the future one.” — Dr Seth Berkley

💬 “H5N1 is a really scary virus.” — Dr Seth Berkley

💬 “Outbreaks are inevitable, but pandemics are optional.” — Larry Brilliant, quoted by Dr Seth Berkley

💬 “The only thing that can protect us in a pandemic is science.” — Dr Seth Berkley

🌐 About WePlanet

WePlanet is a growing international movement campaigning for science-based solutions to the climate, nature and development crises. Through this podcast and beyond, we challenge bad ideas that stand in the way of progress, and make the case for a more abundant, resilient and hopeful future.

What lessons should the world have learned from COVID-19, and are we any better prepared for the next pandemic?

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