Jenny Champoux: Hello everyone and welcome back to Latter-day Saint Art, a limited series podcast from Wayfare Magazine. I’m your host, Jenny Champoux. In Latter-day Saint Art, I’ll guide you through an examination of the artistic tradition of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Each guest is a contributor to the new book, Latter-day Saint Art: A Critical Reader, from Oxford University Press and the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts.

In this episode, we’re thinking about ways that race has been used as a visual symbol in Latter-day Saint Art. We will examine the 19th century history and then consider recent efforts by artists and Church leaders to include diverse global artworks in Latter-day Saint visual culture. Finally, we’ll ask what lessons we can learn from this history to move forward in inclusive ways.

Our guest today are W. Paul [00:01:00] Reeve and Carlyle Constantino.

Paul Reeve is chair of the history department and Simmons Chair of Mormon Studies at the University of Utah. He is author of Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness and Let’s Talk about Race and Priesthood. He is project manager and general editor of an award-winning digital database, Century of Black Mormons, designed to name and identify all known Black Latter-day Saints baptized into the faith between 1830 and 1930. His chapter in the new book is called, “Race and Latter-day Saint Art.”

Carlyle Constantino is a doctoral student in the history department at the University of California Santa Barbara. With both a BA and MA in art history and curatorial studies from Brigham Young University, she interrogates race and image in the 19th and 20th centuries. Her current [00:02:00] research and dissertation project examines artistic labor in the World War II era Japanese American concentration camps, exploring the interplay between art education in the camps and the exhibitions of Japanese American inmate art happening simultaneously around the country. Today we’re talking about her new book chapter, “Native Americans, Mormonism, and Art.”

I am so grateful for the good work these two scholars are doing and excited to hear from them today. Let’s get started.

Paul and Carlyle, welcome to Latter-day Saint Art.

Paul Reeve: Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Jenny Champoux: We’re so excited to talk to you both today, and your chapters complemented each other so well in these considerations of race in the art. Paul, just to give our listeners a little bit more about your background, your scholarship on understandings of race in Latter-day Saint history includes not only these really important analyses of the record, but also the [00:03:00] recovery of information about Black members in the early years of the Church.

And you’re doing that a lot through this Century of Black Mormons website. Can you tell us about that project, that digital database and what you hope its impact will be?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, sure. So Century of Black Mormons is a digital public history project. We launched in June of 2018. Uh, the goal is to name and identify and write short biographies of every person of Black African ancestry baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints between 1830 and 1930. So, the first 100 years of the faith, and it’s simply designed to recover what was lost, the identity and stories of Black Latter-day Saint pioneers.

The first documented member of Black African ancestry was baptized in [00:04:00] 1830, and there have been Black Latter-day Saints ever since, but largely been erased from collective memory, both on the inside and outside of the faith. So, the database is simply designed to recover those stories and identities. Latter-day Saint racial history has largely been told from the perspective of White male leaders. And the database is designed to help us understand what meant to be a Latter-day Saint, Black Latter-day Saint from the vantage point of Black Latter-day Saints in the pews.

I hope it allows us to tell a more diverse Latter-day Saint story, and that the racial diversity was there from the beginning. And I hope it allows us to imagine in art, for example, new stories to depict, right? [00:05:00] These Black Latter-day Saints have largely been erased from collective memory and from Latter-day Saint history.

And so, it’s a way of recovering that and, I think, giving voice to people who were erased. And I guess that helps us to tell a more complete story.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, just fantastic that you’re not only doing the scholarship, but also you’re uncovering these sources that allow for more research and scholarship. So really fantastic. Thank you.

Paul Reeve: Yeah. Thank you.

Jenny Champoux: And Carlyle, congrats on recently passing your qualifying exams. That’s a major accomplishment.

Carlyle Constantino: Yes, thank you. Yes. I’m happy to be done with this. It was a long process.

Jenny Champoux: So, you’re working on your dissertation now. Can you tell us a little more about that project?

Carlyle Constantino: Yes, absolutely. So my dissertation has taken a few different [00:06:00] trajectories. It started out as a history of internment camps in the United States, and I was feeling like that might be a little bit too, a big of a topic to try and conquer with my dissertation. So, I narrowed it down a little bit to the 20th century.

So, I am looking at this idea of artistic labor in the Japanese American concentration camps during World War II, and specifically looking at the art schools in the camps and how the students and teachers of those schools, they put on exhibitions in the camps for their fellow inmates and the other areas.

But there were also exhibits happening on the outside of the camps where inmates sent their artwork to the outside. Happening, you know, across the country during World War II. And so, I find that tension really interesting between what’s going on in the camp and what’s going on outside. And also the question of, well, who is looking at these [00:07:00] exhibits on the outside, you know, who is this for? As opposed to in the camp, you know, it’s really for the inmates and to kind of have this sense of community and uplift, but then how does that kind of turn or twist maybe when it’s, when there’s exhibits of inmate art happening during the same time on the outside simultaneously. So, it’s, it’s very interesting, to me at least.

But, so there’s a lot of good research there and scholarship, so I’m excited to dig in more into that.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I can’t wait to read that one day. I think that’s, I mean, such a tragic moment in history. But I didn’t know that there was a lot of art coming out of that time. So yeah, I’m really excited to see what you do with that.

Carlyle Constantino: Thanks. Yeah, it’s, I didn’t know either until, you know, fairly recently. But then I’m finding, you know, just doing some digging in [00:08:00] archives at universities who hosted exhibitions or, you know, small galleries in Massachusetts or California. And it’s just fascinating to see, reception and how people were talking about these exhibitions.

Like, you know, these groups are still making beautiful art even though they’re in this kind of tragic, you know, confined spaces. So, it’s very interesting how it’s being talked about as well, which is, you know, that kind of brings. Ties into this in my chapter, in this book of, of just thinking about how, you know, Latter-day Saints are looking at Native Americans and, you know, how that translates into visual culture.

Jenny Champoux: Hmm. Okay. Beautiful transition there. Thank you, Carlyle. So, let’s do it. Let’s get into the art from these book chapters. You know, when you look at sort of a survey of the history of Latter-Day Saint art, really until the past 40 years or so, most of the figures depicted have been White.

Paul, your [00:09:00] chapter explains that one reason for that was maybe a desire by 19th century, early 20th century Church members to assimilate with American culture at the time and ideas of whiteness in the broader American culture at the time.

How did early Latter-day Saint art use depictions of race to contrast members of the Church with other groups?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, so I think it’s important, like you, like you said, Jenny, to kind of understand that whiteness played a pretty significant role, in Latter-day Saint history and theology. And that shows up in the art as a result. And if we understand race in the Latter-day saint context as something ascribed from the outside and aspired to from within, it helps us to understand maybe, how this plays out. I thought maybe we could just talk, [00:10:00] briefly about a political cartoon that shows up in Frank Leslie’s Budget of Fun in January, 1872.

This is when Brigham Young is arrested and hauled off to jail. And Frank Leslie’s Budget of Fun is a 19th century pictorial magazine. And it imagines what that scene must looked like, right. Really what it imagines is Brigham Young presiding over a mixed race family, that he is actually intermarrying with people of Black African ancestry and as a result, denigrating the White race, like darkening the White race. And in the minds of outsiders, what’s really at stake is not just the traditional family, but American democracy. Senator Calhoun says on the floor of the United States Senate that ours is the government of a White race. Only White people are capable of self-rule. So if you are intermixing with other [00:11:00] races, especially with, African Americans, you are darkening the White race, making it unfit for democracy.

And that’s, in fact what this scene depicts is Brigham Young presiding over, a mixed racial family. His wives and imagined his imagined wives and children, right, are mixed race, but also even the angle of the face of the supposed Un-American wives, signal degeneration. They’re more ape-like than, you know, human. And Brigham Young himself is depicted in an ape-like physical characterization. So that’s one example of how outsiders are imagining Latter-day Saints.

And then I think that helps us to understand how a Latter-day Saint artist also in the same decade. So, I thought we could just choose two from the 1870s. So that’s 1872. And then you have C. C. A. [00:12:00] Christensen, painting Joseph Preaching to the Indians around 1878.

And so, you have outsiders ascribing a degenerate racial identity onto the Latter-day Saints, and you have Christensen at least suggesting that, no, Latter-day Saints actually are those who are preserving whiteness and civilization in his depiction. So he is, in his depiction showing Joseph Smith preaching to a group of Native Americans and you have Joseph Smith and then presumably other White Latter-day Saints in one corner. And that’s sort of the light corner and the white corner of the depiction. And then you have the group of Native Americans all depicted in, uh, red face. And sort of blending into the foliage in, in the picture, sort of a notion of, you know, primitive, [00:13:00] children of nature and the sense is that Joseph Smith and the Latter-day Saint gospel is bringing racial uplift to these people.

And, you know, the Book of Mormon itself will encourage that kind of interpretation, that, as they convert they will become “white and delightsome,” to use a Book of Mormon phrase. Joseph Smith actually changes the word “white” to “pure,” but a printing mishap sort of loses that until the 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon changes it to “pure.” And there were Latter-days Saints who read that literally. And believed that in converting native peoples, they would become White, their skin color would actually change. And so, it gives an example of the ways in which there is a certain power embedded in whiteness and in [00:14:00] Latter-day Saint history theology, and it shows up in the art. So Latter-day Saints sort of not White enough as ascribed from the outside and then they aspire towards whiteness from the inside. And I think those two visual depictions help us to understand how that plays out.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I think so too. That’s a great comparison. In the C. C. A. Christensen piece I also noticed, and I think you may have mentioned this in the chapter, so you have Joseph Smith and the members of the Church that are wearing formal clothing, jacket and suit and dresses and bonnets, and then the Native Americans, who are wearing this kind of stereotypical imagined sort of state of half dress almost. And even the Mormon woman is sitting in a chair, whereas the Indigenous people are just sitting all on the ground.

So yeah, [00:15:00] again, these interesting little visual cues that Christensen is, pointing to these ideas of refinement, and the contrast there. Yeah.

Paul Reeve: And, and you know, the shading itself, the light, you know, centers on, uh, the Latter-day Saints and the, the one depiction, and then darkness sort of goes the other direction, over the Native Americans. And you can sort of see the contrast in even the light and dark in the picture itself.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. Carlyle, just to continue with C. C. A. Christensen, because you also had a really interesting comparison of two others of his pieces. And you were considering in your essay these types of contrasts in the depiction of Native Americans by artists in the early Church. Can you talk about those two pieces and the juxtaposition you see there?

Carlyle Constantino: Yes. Yeah, I’m happy to. Uh, so the first one is from [00:16:00] 1880. It’s Indian Encampment at Manti.

And it is interesting because in that painting, the foreground and even, you know, the middle ground is this Native American encampment, like the title says, and it’s very peaceful. I would say the atmosphere seems tranquil. It is, you know, kind of a tender scene of, of these families. And there’s really nothing that is, worrisome or dangerous it’s a pleasant scene and you know, but you notice in the background that there are these white wagons, white covered wagons, that are kind of looming on the horizon. And they’re there, but they’re obviously not the, uh, the focal point of the painting. And so it’s interesting that you notice there’s a presence, but it’s not impeding the scene in any way. And whereas 20 years later in 1900, he paints, Handcart Pioneers and it’s a very different scene, very different feeling.

Whereas now it’s kind of, the perspective [00:17:00] has shifted quite a bit. And so we see the pioneers, we see these White individuals, families, young, older, you know, it’s very, I would also say tender. There’s these sweet familial interactions of, uh, you know, people sitting together starting a fire.

This woman, I love the woman who’s breastfeeding because that is just so relatable, you know, to women who have children. And, you know, really kind of creating this empathetic and compassion for these people, who are crossing the plains. But then it is interesting, and this one, it’s a very different, background.

We have these figures that are riding out. And you know, it’s, at first I didn’t even notice them, to be honest. But then as you look closer, you realize, oh, you know, you wonder who are these people? And then you realize as you zoom in that the main figure is likely Native American. He has dark [00:18:00] hair. He’s not wearing, you know, any shirt, and so again, we see this type, we see this type of figure that is, that has been circulating, you know, through visual culture, especially in the 19th century with photographers like Edward Curtis who photographed, you know, all of these, uh, these individuals who in the blankets and with props.

And it was very much staged and trying to create this, this type of, some of someone who is distinctly, as I was saying, other. And also, not White. And so we see here kind of the foregrounding of whiteness, right? In a way, and it’s, it is, it is interesting that the Latter-day Saints are given the compassion and the tender in this, you know, the pioneers are given the compassion, whereas now it’s, it’s just the opposite.

And so it’s, it’s very interesting to see that, that [00:19:00] difference and how it diverges in only 20 years. And to think about, you know, the historical context of what’s happening at this time, you know, we have all of the laws and acts that are being passed against Native Americans. You have the Indian Appropriation Act in the 1850s and the Dawes Severalty Act, which is, you know, it’s just cutting down the land for the, for Native Americans, and then you have boarding schools that are, that are showing up. And so it’s just interesting to see you can see reverberations in these paintings of the visual culture of the Latter-day Saints.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I think that context is so important. I’m so glad you mentioned that and I, I believe that both of these paintings by the time, they were 20 years apart, but by the time both of them were painted, most of the Ute and Shoshone and Paiute people in Utah had already been moved onto reservations.

And so it was already this sort of nostalgic, looking back to this romanticized, like you said, [00:20:00] almost stereotypical kind of idea of, of Native Americans. So we, we’ve already passed right? The moment where they were actually living together. Yeah.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah, and it’s, that’s interesting too because then it’s kind of like, as Paul’s talking about, it’s this idea of Latter-day Saints were trying to legitimize themselves during this time and to really be seen as, you know, to, to portray themselves as they are of, you know, of course they’re White, you know, that kind of thing, and they’re civilized. And so, it’s, it’s also a way to show that we are civilized as opposed to this group or these people. Which, you know, even though they’re not in proximity to each other and necessarily that they can draw back to that image, which I find interesting.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. So, I think complicating all of this history in the visual art is the way that language from the Book of Mormon has sometimes been seen in racial terms. And Paul, you’ve done really [00:21:00] great work in your Let’s Talk about Race Book to sort of contextualize this and show what’s actually going on there.

But these sort of cultural traditions of thinking about race this way, the way that it’s talked about in the Book of Mormon, they show up in the art. So, we have the righteous people being shown as White. We have wicked people being shown as darker skinned, right?

Nephites and Lamanites are even still today usually contrasted in the art by their skin color. That seems to be the main, the main way that artists continue even, you know, 150 years later to, visually distinguish the two groups. So, there is this sort of entrenched history in the art and also in, in the scripture and the way it’s permeated into the culture.

So, let me ask you both, how does this kind of visual symbolism [00:22:00] play into traditional stereotypes like Carlyle was talking about? And why is it important for Church members and artists to more carefully consider such depictions? Paul, can we go to you first?

Paul Reeve: Sure. So why is this problematic? It’s, it’s, it’s problematic because it assumes that White is normal. And then as it plays out in Latter-day Saint theology and gets represented in Latter-day Saint art, right? Like anything that is not White is a deterioration away from White. And then the assumptions that go along with it, right?

That, brown or Black or dark, darker skinned people, you associate righteousness with skin color. And, you know, there are the problematic verses in the Book of Mormon. That’s a, just such a reading. But the Book of Mormon also is filled with verses about God’s love for all [00:23:00] of His children.

Right? And so, you have Nephi who gives us, you know, the “skin of blackness” language, but you also have Nephi I think, you know, teaching universal truths when he says “all are alike unto God.” Uh, and it’s the same person saying both things, right? So which one is actually, right, theologically grounded in God’s universal love.

And so you have this association that plays out in the way that Latter-day Saints interacted with Native peoples, but other peoples, right, including people of Black African ancestry, uh, in the 19th century. And they are bringing those racialized assumptions with them, and it’s all grounded in the notion that White is normal. That White is default. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the [00:24:00] 21st century has officially stated right that skin color is not related to righteousness, but it still exists in Latter-day Saint culture amongst Latter-day Saint members. And so, I think helping to get our minds around what the implications are.

I start the chapter, here in this book, with African American Janan Russell Graham, who went to a Latter-day Saint temple in Chicago for the first time as a convert to a faith and sees a depiction of, uh, Jesus, uh, and the resurrection. And they’re all White angels. And she’s asking does my new faith even see me in the eternities? Right. Do I even exist? And so that’s how it intersects, right, the theology with the art and gives that impression.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, this is, I think, a really timely [00:25:00] discussion because the Church just released a new Topics and Questions essay titled, “Race and the Church.” And they talk about some of these things and they, like you said, they even mentioned the Book of Mormon language about a skin of blackness. And the essay explains that we don’t quite know what that means and whatever it meant, it doesn’t apply to people today.

It also, I just want to read one quote from it. It says, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that everyone is an equal child of God regardless of race, ethnicity, background, skin color, or nationality. The Book of Mormon teaches that all are alike unto God.” So,

Carlyle, let me get, get your take on all this.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think I could say it any more eloquently than Paul, but I think though that, I think it’s just reiterating the notion that, you know, in 2025 it is discouraging to hear that beliefs and [00:26:00] tropes are still present and active, but it’s also important to realize and to remember that in 2025, the Church has made statements and that there is a way to move beyond that. And so, and you know, just, just thinking we can, we can move past these notions that, that do not hold truth that are, you know, and, and that should be distinguished, or extinguished, excuse me. And so, you know, it’s just, I guess reinforcing you both have said is that listening to the Church leadership and following the statements and also immersing yourselves in the scriptures because the scriptures, you know, like you said, Paul, all are like to God and I think that is just, uh it’s important to just remember that and, and try to do your best [00:27:00] to move away from those old notions. And, it’s, you know, it’s something that I think is just, it’s going to take time to really get away from all of that. But I am hopeful in certain ways. Definitely something to consider and to think about and to, to ponder and, you know, we all want to hope to try to be better.

Jenny Champoux: Carlyle, I liked in your chapter how you showed a sort of progression over time. And you were specifically looking at Native American artists. You talked about how in the 19th century, mostly they were being represented by White male artists in the art. And then in more recent years we see more self-representation from native peoples in the art.

Can we just first look at some of [00:28:00] these 19th century pieces that you talked about? There were two that I thought made a really interesting comparison. Dan Weggeland, his portrait of a Native American woman, and then Mahonri Young has a landscape with a sort of anonymous Native American woman.

Talk to us about these pieces and what works or what doesn’t work for you in these two artworks.

Carlyle Constantino: Yes, absolutely. I like that you asked for a comparison because I think I hadn’t really compared them in my mind before, but I think it’s interesting considering, the subject that, you know, they’re both women and so with, with Weggeland’s painting, it’s very interesting considering the context of the piece.

And I think that’s really important for this piece is knowing who Sarah Maraboots was. And so she was a second wife of Ira Hatch who was a Mormon, Latter-day Saint missionary down in the Four Corners region. [00:29:00] And she had several kids with him and, one of the kids is featured in the painting. And so I think that context is in, is important to understand, relationship with the Church and with Latter-day Saint visual culture. Because she is portrayed, she’s painted on a leather hide, which was common in Native American trading economy. So that again, is just kind of reinforcing this notion of, you know, that Native American identity in and of itself. And then she’s looking at the viewer straight on, which I think is fascinating. She has a blanket on her, which is again, kind of like that stereotypical Navajo blanket. I do think it is interesting considering her relationship with the Church and with the Latter-day Saint missionaries, that he decided that [00:30:00] Weggeland decided to paint her instead of, you know, the missionary Ira Hatch or someone else who was, and so it, you know, who was in the, the Latter-day Saint Church who was White.

And so I think that’s interesting, kind of again, going along that idea of it’s this, it’s kind of like this fascination with things Native American. It was, I termed it in the book, it’s called the Indian Craze. That’s what another a scholar has used. And I think you kind of see that a little bit here is this, this fascination with things that are Native American, especially in this time period.

And comparing that to Mahonri Young. Young is interesting in and of itself, himself because he’s lauded pretty prominently throughout the Church or, you know, he’s, he is celebrated and his artwork is, you know, pretty well-loved throughout the Church, I would say. And you know, technically [00:31:00] his paintings are beautiful in the post-impressionist style. He went and trained in Paris, and you know, he has this really, you know, formal education. That’s wonderful, but is, it is interesting his paintings of Navajo, well, he termed them Indian women.

I titled it Navajo Woman because I wanted to hopefully try to find a little more accuracy and, and give a little bit of, you know, give the woman her space, you know, her time. So, it is interesting that he paints these women as part of the landscape. So, it is very much like she is, it’s not focused on her, on her figure, you know, really at all. We have this tree that is kind of, you know, overgrowing and we have a goat and then we have the sky and the clouds are thick and the grass, you can tell it’s brown, but it’s kind of blowing in the wind and it’s a really lovely [00:32:00] painting. But when you think about it, you know, who is this woman what is her story?

And we don’t get any of that, which I, you know, and that’s, that’s kind of going back to, you know, the positionality of the artist is it was a White male and, you know, looking, kind of having this certain kind of gaze on the Native Americans and especially Native American women as part of the landscape and really kind of defining that landscape. And I think it’s, yeah, it’s interesting that her identity is not particularly important to the, to Mahonri Young, but, you know, she is there regardless. And, uh, and so that is, yeah, that’s something that I, I really took notice of.

Jenny Champoux: So, I had not been familiar with this Mahonri Young painting before. I’m so glad you included it. It’s visually a beautiful painting. You know, it reminded me a little bit of John Hafen’s Girl with Hollyhocks.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah.

Jenny Champoux: [00:33:00] Which I mean, that’s another White male artist and this is his daughter in it. But it’s actually kind of similar that there’s a girl in a landscape. You don’t really see her face. It’s partially obscured. She actually, I think in John Hafen’s, we see her from the back. And it just, I thought that was interesting that I think they’re painted around the same time. I think Hafen’s is 1902 and Young’s, it seemed like we weren’t quite sure, but maybe 1915 or something like that.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah, I, we, so there wasn’t a date, associated with this painting and, it was kind of buried a little bit. And, and the title was, you know, again, that was something that had been given by the curator at the Church History Museum. So, he hadn’t even named this. So, it was a little bit of just a, a big question mark as to when this was painted, why it was painted, who it’s painted of. [00:34:00] but I do think that’s, that is interesting. I never thought of that comparison with the John Hafen piece.

Jenny Champoux: Well, I just thought since they’re painted around the same time in the same community, by artists that knew each other, and it made me think maybe the issue is more with male gaze than any kind of statement about race. Right? I mean, in both it’s a male artist putting an anonymous woman in a landscape and in one it’s a White girl and in one it’s a Navajo woman. But kind of a very similar composition. I don’t know.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah, we could get, I mean, there could be a whole podcast about the male gaze, but the, it is interesting. I mean, especially, you know, training in Europe and, and, and being kind of around, you know, the, the post-impressionists and, something that you see, you know, in Manet and, and I mean, Ingres, and all the, all these, these very prominent European artists.

And so it’s that, isn’t it? I like that you brought that. It could just be [00:35:00] the gaze and not race. That’s interesting. But I definitely think it’s part of it. I think it’s, I think it’s complicated,

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. I had one more question about the portrait of Sarah Maraboots. Do we have any information on was Weggeland commissioned by the family to do this, or was it something he just did on his own? Because I feel like that would change maybe the way we, right, think about his motivations there.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah. That’s a great question. I wish I had an answer for you. I tend to find pieces that nobody knows anything about, so I really have to dig to. I was actually, I was talking with Laura Howe at the Church Museum. She shared what she knew about the piece, and I just think it’s one of those that came to the museum, and it was, uh, just something that was, we had. They kind of had to dig to find some research on, or to find some information about. And so, I don’t know if it was commissioned. I, I’m not sure.

Jenny Champoux: Well, again, another piece that I wasn’t familiar with, so I love that you’re bringing these early pieces to light for us to, to think more deeply about deeply.

Paul, in the 19th century, are there many portrayals of Black latter-day saints?

Paul Reeve: Uh, the simple answer is no. I don’t find them being represented, at all as pioneers in sort of pioneer depictions, uh, they’re just .The one, one exception that I include in the chapter is just simply the fact that the 1847 pioneers, both Black and White into the Salt Lake Valley, maintained a revered status throughout the 19th century and into the early 20th century. Each July 24th [00:37:00] celebration, which commemorated Young’s entrance into the Salt Lake Valley, would include, 1847 pioneers who would receive sort of a venerated spot, and sometimes even included in the speeches. It’s important to remember there were three Black enslaved men who arrived on July 22nd in the Salt Lake Valley, two days ahead of Brigham Young. One of those, Green Flake, remains a practicing Latter-day Saint for the rest of his life. And, there are at least 19 newspaper accounts that mention him in conjunction with Pioneer Day celebrations. And he is depicted with a line drawing in a newspaper article in the 19th century, that commemorates his role as an original pioneer into the Salt Lake Valley. The other exception is Jane Elizabeth Manning James and her brother Isaac Manning, are [00:38:00] also depicted in newspaper with line drawings, commemorating their status as people who worked in Joseph Smith’s home, Joseph and Emma’s home in in Nauvoo. Of their connection to the founding prophet of the faith, uh, newspaper reporters would track them down and, and talk to them.

And Jane and her husband, who was also named Isaac, and their two children were also 1847 pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley. And so, because of that status, uh, they were remembered in the 19th century. And both Jane and Isaac Manning her brother, not her husband, and Green Flake, were depicted visually with line drawings.

I mean, you know, it’s always possible that, historians miss something, right? There could be some depictions [00:39:00] out there that we’re not aware of, but that, seems to be the only indications that I’m aware of, and it’s the connection to 1847. Uh, once that generation dies away, it just really then, depictions disappear of Black Latter-day Saints. They seem to really disappear. And the Black Latter-day Saints themselves, even in written forms, seem to disappear from the narratives that Latter-day Saints tell about the pioneering experience.

Jenny Champoux: I really liked that you both talked about how in recent decades we’ve seen this move toward greater representation, or self-representation by non-white artists. And, bringing their own cultures and styles to bear in Latter-day Saint art. Paul, let me, I wanna go to both of you, but Paul, let me stick with you for a minute. Could you share an example or two from your chapter about this idea?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, sure. I think [00:40:00] it’s, you know, like you mentioned Jenny, the last 40 or so years where we have, remember 1996 is the year in which historians have documented, there are more Latter-day Saints outside of the United States than inside. And, you have Latter-day Saints around the globe who start to imagine themselves in the arts that they are producing.

One of my favorite examples, uh, the, a Church History Museum commissioned who is an artist in Sierra Leone, uh, in the 1990s, I believe. Yeah, it was 1992 to create a variety of depictions and, uh, it was really difficult picking one to include. This was the frustration of, this chapter is, the visual depictions that actually make it into print. [00:41:00] Uh, he did a whole series. they included just everyday scenes of a Latter-day Saints in Sierra Leone, blessing the sacrament or, you know, giving them a blessing or, or whatever, just what Latter-day Saints around the globe would recognize as these rituals.

But everyone included was Black, so really atypical. But the things that really captivated me, the pieces that captivated me were, uh, he did a depiction of Joseph and Mary and baby Jesus, all Black. He did a depiction of the Last Supper. Everyone was Black. The depiction that I chose to include was Christ on the Cross. Um. It, it still kind of gets to me. It’s just, for me, a beautiful depiction that, centers blackness at the heart of the [00:42:00] redemption rather than being relegated, as people who aren’t redeemable. It actually centers them at the heart of the redemption.

I just find it visually compelling, theologically compelling. And I love that, uh, you know, Emile Wilson, gave us a Black Jesus, that I think conveys profound meaning. And, you know, it’s a part of the Church History Museum’s collection.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for explaining that history and including that image in your chapter. Carlyle, what about you? What examples do you see recently of this greater self-representation in the art?

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah. I appreciate what you shared, Paul. And I think just sticking with my chapter too, I guess actually to bring it up for a sec, I think to [00:43:00] reiterate that this is a global church now, you know, and that’s, it’s exciting and I, hope and wish that we can embrace that, that this is a global church that we are part of.

And my chapter, I focus primarily on Kwani Winder, who is, she’s a Santa Clara, or of that tribe and Native American. And she’s really inspiring in many ways. I was, had the opportunity to interview her for my chapter and I shared that in the book. But I think, just her thoughts were really enlightening and eye-opening in ways that even I didn’t think about in the sense that, you know, she’s just talking about how for her, you know, it’s complicated and it’s messy, and she doesn’t know all the answers to why certain things happened in Latter-day Saint history or, talking about, you know, the Indian Placement [00:44:00] Service Program and just her family’s, you know, experience with that.

And just a lot of really kind of sensitive and tough topics and histories in the Church. Yet, you know, I’m inspired by her because she says, well, I, you know, don’t know all the answers. But she paints her truth. So, I love that she incorporates elements of her heritage, of her, of not only, you know, the Santa Clara tribe, which is very, a lot of emphasis on pottery. And so the designs that, you know, are used and by that tribe, but also, just her, her spiritual heritage or cultural heritage, just kind of all of that combined. And I love a piece, it’s not in, in my chapter, but it’s called Heavenly Mother. It’s just this beautiful, you know, Indigenous woman who she has, you know, this kind [00:45:00] of the tribal pottery, the designs behind her.

And it’s just something so different so far than what I think a lot of people would, would envision when they think heavenly mother or just kind of anything that is, is related to, you know, spiritual, the divine. And so, I love that, that’s, that’s her divine and that that’s what she goes to. And I wish, I want to see more of that from artists.

And I know that there’s artists who are working now, who are, who are, really embracing their heritage and I love it. And I, I hope that we as a church and church members can embrace that more going forward.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I think it adds such a richness to our iconography. I also loved the Les Namingha Hopi pottery that you included, and, and the way he is fusing Christian symbolism, like Christ with the nail marks in his hands, but fused it with these traditional Hopi symbols, like the [00:46:00] whirlwind and the spiral, indicating the universe or a sense of eternity.

And, I think that is really exciting to me. And it feels very peculiarly Latter-day Saint. And I think we need to lean into that a little more, that like really interesting fusion of our beliefs and doctrine and these different cultural heritages and iconography. I think it’s really beautiful.

Yeah. Thank you.

Carlyle Constantino: I, and just to, to make a, to comment on Winder and, and just Native American artists in particular. You know, I think it’s just really important to remember that, you know, Native Americans are not monolithic. That they are, you know, it’s, they’re nuanced and, and complex and that there are, you know, very different, know, not only from different, uh, but just very different people and, you know, culture, like, just like [00:47:00] the spiritual faith journeys that we’re all going on.

You know, it’s, it’s complicated and of life and messy so.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. That’s great nuance. Thank you for pointing that out. Paul, you mentioned that the Church History Museum had commissioned this series of works from Wilson in Sierra Leone. Are, are there other efforts that you see among Church leaders or just Church members to try to include a greater variety of art?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, I think so. Obviously the Museum’s International Art Competition, is probably the best example of that. But I actually conclude my chapter with one example that I found quite heartening, because it contrasts really well with the opening to the chapter where I open with Janan Russell Graham encountering the imagined resurrected savior and the angels who are all White wondering if, [00:48:00] uh, her faith, even sees her in the eternities. And I end with the example, the Washington, DC Temple was rededicated and the artwork that was included was deliberately diverse. But it included a commissioned piece, which indicates to me at least that Latter-day Saint leadership are attuned to the kind of things we’re talking about today.

They commissioned artist Dan Wilson to paint once again a new version of Christ’s anticipated reappearance, the second coming. Uh, and it includes, uh, you know, hundreds of imagined angels. And an incredible diversity of, uh, racial diversity amongst those angels, right? So that, those who enter the Washington DC Temple, it’s one of the images they will encounter, and it does see right, [00:49:00] all of God’s children in the eternities. So, to me, that’s a great example of how, what it, it seems that there is an effort, right, to, I think those are efforts that I see taking place that are deliberate, and I welcome them.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. I do think you’re right that at the Church History Museum, there’s [00:50:00] been several decades now of curators there interested in expanding, to a broader cultural representation. Richard Oman in the eighties and nineties certainly did a lot to begin that effort and collecting, I mean, going to villages and reservations and collecting things and commissioning things and, from all over the world and then, and writing about it and presenting it to the Church.

And then Laura Hurtado and now Laura Howe, all, I think all of them are like of that same mindset of really feeling excited by the possibilities of a global visual culture.

Carlyle, what about you? Do you see any efforts here towards greater diversity?

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah. I do, I mean, I would reiterate all of Paul’s points and I think, you know, even just thinking [00:51:00] about this volume, the Latter-day Saint, you know, our critical reader, I think that that’s also an important step to just getting it out to people so they can have it in their homes. And something to, to look at.

I know not everybody’s gonna read this book. But I think it, it starts with talking about it, with writing about it, with, you know, I’ve noticed that, and even in chapels that they’re changing out the artwork.

Our chapel in Santa Barbara, they changed out their artwork recently. And I do notice that there is a little bit of difference. I mean, the old paintings were more of the Arnold Friberg style. So it is interesting to see updated artwork and maybe that’s just because we’re out there and maybe it was Utah, it would be different, but, and quicker. But it is interesting to see changes happening and it’s, it’s, [00:52:00] me hopeful, you know, especially with the art competition at the Church History Museum and the art that’s going into the temples and then this book. I think that there are gains that are being made. And I think it’s exciting, and I’m hoping that as we go forward, that there will only be more. I hope we’ll be on an upward, swing here so that we can continue to, you know, talk about these, these tough histories, but also, you know, show that church is, it’s a global church.

It’s, you know, it’s not just White. It’s more than that. And, we should celebrate that. So I’m, I’m hopeful for the future.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I love that. I’ve also seen recently some artworks done by White members of the Church depicting early Black Latter-day Saints. And Paul, I [00:53:00] imagine that your great Century of Black Mormons project has helped shift the conversation here a little bit and sparked an interest in thinking about that early history and then trying to visualize it to a broader audience.

So, I know like Anthony Sweat has done The Ordination of Q. Walker Lewis, who was an early 19th century member of the Church. Megan Rieker has done several paintings of Jane Manning, James. Walter Rane last year did a, uh, a Black Jesus painting. So, I think that I, I’ve seen that trend too, of just artists across the board, White or not, feeling like they just want to explore that history more and include a, a greater diversity of figures.

Paul Reeve: Yeah, I might mention, that the, the Church History Library has now commissioned a series, I hope I’m not going to get in trouble by saying this, [00:54:00] based on stories from Century of Black Mormon. So, the painting of Isaac Lewis Manning that Marlena Wilding did. And then they have commissioned Marlena to do three additional ones.

Two of them are complete, so, they’re, they’re a part of the permanent collection, of the Church History Museum. William and Marie Graves, uh, who were, uh, converts in, in Oakland, California, uh, the turn of the 20th century, uh, who went on vacation in 1920 to Georgia and were asked to leave the Georgia chapel because they were Black. They bothered to look up where a church was, Marie invited two of her friends to introduce them to her faith, and they were invited out of the chapel and, and dismissed. They returned to Oakland and continued to worship there for the rest of their lives. [00:55:00] Marlena has now painted them, and a copy of their painting hangs in one of the churches.

The original is in the Church History Museum. And then, Freda Lucretia Magee Beaulieu, who waited six, nine years to get into a Latter-day Saint temple and lived in New Orleans, has also, Marlena has done a portrait of her and then is working on an additional one. So, there is a deliberate effort yes, to include some of these stories visually. And it’s grounded in the Century of Black Mormons database.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. Thank you. Okay, final question here. Paul, I like the way you’ve talked in some of your writings about President Nelson’s call, where you said, calling on members everywhere to lead out in abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice. So, can you each give me some specific thoughts on what can members of the Church can [00:56:00] do to heed that call?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, I remain hopeful in that chapter. I give some examples. I, you know, uh, we’re asked to consider our brothers and sisters as ourselves. And if we’re only thinking of that as, you know, White people, then we’re missing the point. Or as a White person, if I’m only thinking of that as considering, esteeming my brothers and sisters as myself, I’m missing the point.

And if I’m encountering people of my faith who have had difficult experiences because of their racial identity or their ethnic identity, if I get defensive or suggest that somehow whiteness is under attack, I am not fulfilling my obligation to, uh, [00:57:00] esteem my brothers and sisters and myself. Sometimes, just being a listening ear and being willing to understand that other people’s experiences may very well be different from mine because their ethnic and racial identity is different than mine. Being willing to be inclusive, to think about in which, we can be inclusive. And I’ve, I’ve had people, you know, these are the unintended consequences of the Century of Black Mormons database, but I’ve had people, you know, send me pictures of the bulletin boards that have created by simply downloading pictures and documents from the Century of Black Mormons database and creating, bulletin boards in their chapels for Black History Month.

Jenny Champoux: Beautiful. Thank you.

Carlyle Constantino: I guess I think about it in this way. I always tell my kids when they go to school, remember to be like Jesus. And they’re like, okay, mom I, you know, I think about it and it’s like, why do I say that? And then I think about [00:58:00] it and Jesus was no respecter of persons.

He was kind to all, and it seems like such a simple thing, but it makes such a difference when you approach your life that way. And when you approach everyone that way is that he was no respect or persons. And so, who am I to judge? Who am I to, to put someone above another person? You know? And I, I think about it, you know, it’s funny because I only study non-White people and that’s how it’s been my whole, my whole academic career. So, it’s interesting to me to be in this space and to think about, you know, it’s like, of course, like treat everybody, you know, kindly and, and fairly and you know, it’s just interesting with my own biases and my perspectives and, you know, just thinking about. Well, what does it boil down to? And it really boils down to the scriptures and to, to be like our savior, to be like Christ. To be [00:59:00] kind and, and to avoid judgment. I love, Paul, what you said about the Black History Month. I think that is something that’s exciting because it’s tangible and it’s something that, that people can actually do.

So, I’m gonna, I’m gonna start thinking about things that are like that, that we could do, that are, you know, can be experienced by people in the ward or, or whatever.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. Okay. At the end of every episode, I’m asking our guests to share a Latter-day Saint artwork that is meaningful to them. Doesn’t have to be your very favorite and it doesn’t have to relate to this discussion. Paul, can we start with you? Do you have one you’d like to talk about?

Paul Reeve: Yeah, so I’m gonna just use Marlena Wilding’s portrait of Isaac Lewis Manning. I did the research on Isaac for the Century of Black Mormons database, and I found enough information that I ended up publishing an [01:00:00] article on him in the Journal of Mormon History. Most of the attention has been on Jane and rightfully so.

She’s an amazing Latter-day Saint pioneer. But I was also intrigued by Isaac’s story. He digs four graves for the slain bodies of Joseph and Hiram Smith. He digs two decoy graves in the Nauvoo Cemetery because the Latter-day Saints were worried that those who had killed Joseph and Hiram would dig up the bodies and desecrate them. So, caskets filled with sand were buried in the public ceremony. But the bodies were actually buried at the Joseph and Emma homestead location. And Isaac dug those graves as well.

After the 20th century in 1904 he’s in Salt Lake and living with Jane, his sister, [01:01:00] he swears out an affidavit in which he proudly declares, “I dug the graves.” And he gives details in that affidavit, that only he could have known. I tried to match up everything in the affidavit with what is known about the burials and, he had inside information that just confirms to me that this was just his badge of honor. Uh, and so Marlena’s portrait of Isaac includes him holding a shovel as the symbol for him digging those graves.

And then in the other hand, holding his affidavit. That was his connection to Joseph Smith and, like I said, his badge of honor that he carried with him for the rest of his life. And so, Marlena in my estimation, beautifully captures that. And so it is kind of captivating to me, [01:02:00] and it was on display at the LDS Church History Museum’s temporary exhibit.

And it’s now back in the corner of my office. I haven’t unwrapped it yet after getting it from the Church History Museum. But I’m just thrilled about the visual depiction and sort of the meaning that it conveys.

Jenny Champoux: I had a chance to see that piece in the Work and Wonder exhibition out there this year and was really excited to see it. It is a really stunning piece, aesthetically. And then knowing the history. Thank you for sharing that.

Carlyle, how about you?

Carlyle Constantino: The one that I, that really kind of stuck to my mind was, it’s called Living Waters by Madeline Rupard. She’s featured in Chase’s chapter, Chase Westfall’s chapter. And we were actually housemates in Provo a long time ago. And that was when I first got to know her and got to kind of experience her art. And [01:03:00] and then as she’s gone on. I love that she paints just kind of like the every day, the real life and like these quirky moments and just things that you don’t even just, you pass by and they’re just so real.

And the painting, Living Waters, it is of the fountains, the water fountains in a Church building and there’s a trash can sitting next to the fountains like you typically see. And then above the fountains is a painting of Christ. And I think it is just, so real and so relatable and so personable, especially, you know, just now as a churchgoer, as someone who goes into these Church buildings.

You know, they’re all kind of, that you get that same feeling when you go into the Church building. You know, it’s just very familiar and seeing this scene that is so familiar and having that title of Living Waters. There’s the water, but there’s also [01:04:00] Christ, you know, that kind of interesting double meaning. It’s just, I love that piece because it’s just something that is easy and relatable and like Christ is the living waters, and this is where I go to worship him, you know? And, and this is, it’s just familiar. And, and I really like that, about that. And she actually, she talked with Glen Nelson, I think it was, in a podcast about that piece specifically, and she said that she found that image from someone else’s Instagram, kind of just like textures of Mormon life. And so just interesting too, this connection to social media and kind of where we’re at in, you know, just it feels very now and very real.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah, I feel like that piece really taps [01:05:00] into a point that Terryl Givens made in his chapter, and we talked with him on the first episode of this podcast about it. This, the way the Latter-day Saints just completely collapse the distance between sacred and profane, right? So, you’ve got this image of Christ, but then like the trash can, and, and the way, like, we’re all, like, “Every member a janitor!” Like we’re all, you know, it’s like holy but it’s holiness in just the most mundane, everyday things. Which is beautiful. And I like the way Madeline is capturing that in her art.

Carlyle Constantino: Yeah.

Jenny Champoux: Yeah. Thanks. Well, Paul and Carlyle, thank you so much for talking with us today.

Carlyle Constantino: Thank you. This was awesome. So, thank you, Jenny.

Paul Reeve: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity.

Jenny Champoux: To our listeners, thanks for tuning in. Join us on the next episode as we consider the evolution of [01:06:00] temple art and architecture. Josh Probert will be our guest to discuss the material environment of the temple, including some recent developments in building design and art commissions. We’ll see you then.

Thank you for listening to Latter-day Saint Art, a Wayfare Magazine limited series podcast. Each guest is a contributor to the new book, Latter-day Saint Art: A Critical Reader from Oxford University Press and the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts. I hope you’ll order a copy of the book to read the full essays and see all the gorgeous full color images of the artwork.

You can learn more about the book and other projects at the Center’s website at centerforlatterdaysaintarts.org. If you enjoyed this interview, be sure to listen to the other episodes in this series. You can subscribe to Wayfare Magazine at Wayfaremagazine.org. And thanks to our sponsor, Faith Matters, an organization that promotes an expansive view of the restored gospel.

If you’d like to learn more about Latter-day [01:07:00] Saint Art, check out my other podcast, Behold: Conversations on Book of Mormon Art. You can also learn more at my website, the Book of Mormon Art Catalog. With more than 11,000 artworks, it’s the largest public digital database of Latter-day Saint art. You can search by scripture reference topic, artist, country, year and more.

And we recently added a new section for art based on Church history, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The website is bookofmormonartcatalog.org. Check it out and see what exciting new art you can find to enrich your study.

Jennifer Champoux is the founder and director of the Book of Mormon Art Catalog. She wrote C. C. A. Christensen: A Mormon Visionary (University of Illinois Press, forthcoming) and co-edited Approaching the Tree: Interpreting 1 Nephi 8 (Maxwell Institute, 2023).

Get full access to Wayfare at www.wayfaremagazine.org/subscribe