This is the LAST episode of Season One of Intuitive Style the podcast, featuring one of my long-time inspirations, Christine Platt. I’ve kept up with Christine’s social media for years, since I first discovered Minimalism in earnest back in 2020. Her approach to intentional-living is unparalleled, leading with introspection, questioning everything, and being open to surprise. She’s also recently joined Substack herself at Lessons on Liberation, give her a follow! I can’t think of a better person to wrap up the first season with.

While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Maureen: You’re listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today’s guest really needs no introduction, but I’m going to give her her flowers anyway. She’s a multi-genre author, a trailblazer for representation in the lifestyle and wellness space. And a voice so many of us turn to for wisdom and inspiration. You might already follow her on Instagram or perhaps, you know, her beautiful book, The Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less. I’m honored to welcome her to the show, Christine Platt.

Christine: Thank you so much for having me, Maureen. I’m happy to be here.

Maureen: Likewise, I’m so excited to get to talk to you today. I’ll just jump in with one of the aspects of your work that really resonates with me. Especially reflected by the title of your upcoming book, Less is Liberation, is how you move towards what is good rather than simply away from what’s bad. And so you center alignment, possibility, empowerment, rather than focusing on restriction or lack or even comparison, right? And that approach has really stayed with me and makes me feel empowered, loved, deeply capable, all the best things. Can you share how you came to see the world in that way? And how did you learn to find expansion where others might see limitation?

Christine: You know, this is the new sort of muscle that I have learned to exercise. It’s almost like we’re taught to be hard on ourselves. You know what I mean? So for so many years, I was just so hard on myself. And, you know, there’s a quote in The Afro-Minimalist Guide that is still a mantra that I live by, which is: I am not a grown woman, I am a growing woman. And I think that that mantra helped me sort of move from this space of like, “You should know better, you should…” you know what I mean? Just being really negative and hard on myself to being in this place of like, wow, you’re growing, you’re expanding, you’re learning something new every day.

And the other part of that quote is, And may I always be growing. So I’m not a grown woman, I’m a growing woman, and may I always be growing. And I think that leaves space for us to not be so hard on ourselves and understand we’re all students of life. We’re all trying to figure it out. And there’s just no reason for us to be as hard on ourselves as we are. Like when I look back on my younger years, I’m like, I was so mean to myself. You know what I mean? I was so hard on myself—and why? And again, I think so much of it is learned behavior. So learning to look at myself, reframing a lot of what I’ve been told as a child, unlearning a lot of what I’ve been told by society, and really getting into the space of like, you know what? Let me love myself. Let me love myself through all of these life lessons, through these journeys. And it’s just been beautiful. I mean, I think what a gift, right? To be able to reflect, sit back with ourselves, learn from— I don’t want to say mistakes—so many of the lessons that we have had throughout our lifetime. And really look at them through a lens of love instead of being so critical and understand that they have really helped shape and make us who we are.

Maureen: So I’d love to hear from your perspective—could you share a little more detail on how do you actually change that self-talk in the micro moments? Do you have an approach to catching those negative thoughts?

Christine: Yeah. I mean, I think we catch them all the time, right? They’re more like limiting beliefs—that’s what I speak to them as in Less is Liberation. They’re these limiting beliefs that have become a part of our narrative, that have really started to take over our lives, become rules that we live by. They influence our behaviors and what we think about ourselves. And in those moments, it’s almost like catching yourself, like you said, in real time. When I hear myself being critical, just pausing—the power of pause has been a big part of my practice. And that is pausing when I’m saying something to myself and I’m like, wait, where did that come from? Pausing to self-assess, pausing to be introspective. And then in that moment, reframing. Because it’s in that reframing where we get to tell ourselves new stories, where we get to look at past circumstances that may have truly been life-altering and defining for us in one way—and reframe them in another way that becomes more empowering.

So for example—excuse me, here in DC the pollen is crazy, so I’m going to apologize now for any coughing—but for example, being very critical of ourselves and saying something like, “Man, I just should have worked harder on that,” even when we know that we gave something our all. Pausing to say, “What—you did work hard. What makes you think that you could have worked harder?” And it starts this drill-down of messaging and conditioning. And it’s just like, “Well, I could have worked harder because I went to bed at nine. I could have probably stayed up until eleven.” And then: “Well, why do you feel like you need to stay up until eleven?” “Well, I was taught…” You know what I mean? It’s a lot of self-talk.

And I think that’s a part of “doing the work” that people don’t really talk about—is that it’s really conversations that we have with ourselves. We spend so much time seeking external validation. We spend so much time looking for answers outside of ourselves, when all the while, the answers are right within us. And so doing that introspective work, asking myself “why?”—repeatedly drilling down—is where I found out like, man, I really am a people pleaser. I didn’t realize that I was a people pleaser, right? Because I’d reframed it in other ways: “I’m just helpful,” “I’m just kind,” “I’m just sharing,” right? And then really sitting with myself one day and being like, no, this is people-pleasing behavior. Why? Where did this come from?

That work—that reframing—it almost has to happen either in real time or through being introspective. So if you can’t catch it in real time, make time every day to be introspective. But what most of us do—and I’m not pointing fingers, because I feel like the way our lives are, the way society is set up, we live in this capitalist world, we’ve been taught to consume and work—most of us don’t make time for that introspection. We don’t make time to self-assess. But in those little moments of self-assessment is where that reframing happens. It’s where you get to reclaim your narrative, reclaim yourself, and really start to do things differently.

And I like to say, we can replace our limiting beliefs with liberating beliefs. So we can say—man, it’s funny, I’ve worked through so many I can’t even think of one! But I’ll try. Like one was: “I have to work hard,” or “I have to get it done or no one else is going to do it.” Replacing that with a liberating belief: “I am not the only one who is capable of doing it. Other people are also able to do it. And me giving them time and space to do that is also enlightening and helpful for their journey.” Just replacing it in real time with something that is liberating, as opposed to berating ourselves all the time.

So if I can think of a practice or a “how to,” it is just: make time every day to think about, “Where did this thought come from?” We know the thoughts that aren’t serving us. Then question it—just do a little inquiry.

Maureen: Yeah.

Christine: Don’t know. Have you ever heard of the book… oh my goodness. I can, I can see it—it’s Michael Singer and…

Maureen: Yeah.

Christine: It is…

Maureen: Is…

Christine: You…

Maureen: This…

Christine: Know…

Maureen: The…

Christine: Like…

Maureen:Untethered Soul?

Christine: I’m talking…

Maureen: I’m…

Christine: Yes.

Maureen: Obsessed with that book.

Christine: Oh my God. It’s so good. So, you know what I’m about to say, which is that inner roommate, man. It’s our inner roommate. And when he talks about—I don’t know if you’ve listened to the audiobook—but the audiobook is so funny because…

Maureen: I’ll check it out.

Christine: Yeah, like you really—I have the physical copy and the audiobook too—but the audiobook is so funny because you really get to hear how our inner roommate is like so unhinged, right?

Maureen: Yes.

Christine: So it’s like, we have that thought like, “Man, I should have worked harder”—that inner roommate. And for those who haven’t read The Untethered Soul, first of all, you should. And then secondly, what we’re talking about is like our psyche, that part of ourselves that narrates our life around us and what’s happening. But we become, I don’t know, like beholden to that voice. And we think it is a part of us. Right? And so if we have that thought—”Man, I should have worked harder”—our inner roommate is like, “Yeah, you should have. You know who I bet was working harder? So-and-so. And you know what? I bet so-and-so is going to get that promotion at night,” right?

So I’ve also learned to silence my inner roommate and distinguish between what I’m thinking and feeling and what my psyche is just narrating based on my experiences and life around me. It’s not me. And I think that book has been so crucial in helping me learn how to reframe and reclaim my narrative and distinguish between what I am thinking and feeling and what my inner roommate is narrating.

Maureen: I mean, this is just so beautiful to me because I’ve always connected with your work and I didn’t know why. Like, you know what I mean? I can say all the reasons why, but there’s also just a feeling of like—there’s something about the way that you approach the world that is exactly how I’m trying to approach the world. I’ve never seen you explicitly reference that book before, but that book is also for me one of the biggest pillars in my life that I return to. My copy—I specifically bought a physical copy so that I could highlight and reread and reread and reread because it’s basically how to practice meditation without having to, you know, dedicate—like sit on the floor with your legs crossed.

Christine: Yeah.

Maureen: The whole practice of meditation is so that we can be mindful in any moment throughout our day. And what I love about his book is that there’s no meditation. Everything is meditation and nothing is meditation because it’s simply being aware all the time. And just that self-acceptance. And, you know, transparently, I think it’s a practice—I imagine you agree. And sometimes that practice will be better and we will have our negative self-talk more under control. And there will be other times where that negative self-talk is higher. And, you know, I keep thinking I need to go back and read that book because my self-talk is getting worse. And I’m like, oh—I know it’s happening, and I know that I have this ability to interact with it in a different way. And I haven’t been. I’ve been looking on my phone instead, I’ve been criticizing other people and being really reactive. I can’t believe that you just brought that up. Like, it’s so beautiful.

Christine: That book has, like, been life-changing for me. That and The Pathway of Surrender. I can’t think of the author—I think it’s Dr. Hawkins. Really helping me understand. Because I mean, for me, I didn’t—I wasn’t aware of my inner roommate. I feel like now I should do a post about it because I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that inner voice. And once I learned, number one, that I can’t really make it shut up—it’s always… When he’s like, you know, it’s like in chapter one or chapter two, and he’s like, “You spend a little time with your inner roommate and you realize really quickly you’re locked in there with a maniac,” I remember just bursting out laughing because I was like, my inner roommate is so unhinged.

But because I didn’t realize it was my inner roommate, I thought it was me. I would listen to it, right? So if it’s like, “Oh my God, you’re so stupid. I can’t believe you just did that,” I would be like, “I am so stupid. Why did I do that?” Right? Whereas now I recognize that and I talk back. You know what I mean? Like, I’m like, “I’m not actually stupid. I actually knew what I was doing, and that was a wise decision.” I had to learn to really challenge that inner roommate. And anyone that has—I love talking to other people that have read that book. I said, you can’t unsee it. You know what I mean? Like you can’t unsee it. And so you start to realize all the ways your psyche, your inner roommate—which is just there much like fear, right? Like these are things that are never going to go away because biologically they have been designed to protect us. And so understanding how to manage that and navigate that and let it work in concert with my life rather than dictate my life or determine my life—getting a handle on managing that inner roommate.

Maureen: Yeah.

Christine: Learning how to reframe is so important. Another book is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. That’s another book where I love the audiobook and listen to it every year. It’s like having a life coach. And one of the things that she talks about in that book is fear, right? And this idea that, you know, we’ve been taught like, stop being afraid—and it’s like, we can’t. Because fear is like a biological trigger designed to protect us. So how do we manage that fear? We say to ourselves, like she says in the book, “Listen, we’re about to go on a ride together and you’re going to have to come along, fear, because I can’t get rid of you. But what you’re going to do is, you’re going to sit in that passenger seat and don’t touch anything. Don’t say anything.” Right? Like, you are just here along for the ride, but I’m steering the car.

And so I think all of these things that we talk about—like managing our lives and navigating our lives—really boils down to learning how to manage and navigate ourselves. And I think for so many years, I kept looking for solutions outside of myself.

Maureen: Yep.

Christine: So I think that’s why I write the way I do. It’s why I share the things that I do because I want people to know like, yes, you are the problem, but you are also the solution.

Maureen: Yes.

Christine: Which is very beautiful, you know. And so I think a lot of what we’re doing in this space—a lot of the work that you’re doing—it is

Maureen: I think it would be nice to try to share like a couple examples of like a decision that we would make differently today with this mindset of self-compassion or this mindset of awareness. So, like, one that comes to my mind is that I lived for a very long time in a place that I did not enjoy living in. It was a place that every single day I felt out of alignment. I felt that I was compromising on every aspect of my life by choosing to live in a place that was affordable but did not make me feel joyful. And so when I went through the process of self-acceptance and self-compassion towards I don’t have to choose to live in this less expensive place at the risk or at the cost of hating my life, I actually can have the choice to go live in the place that I want to live and I will make affordances for my life like moving in with my family in order to live in that more expensive place. So that’s an example from my life. Are there any examples that you can think of, of how this mindset truly changed the course of your life?

Christine: Yeah, I mean, I love that you use that example because I think there are so often, so many times that we look back on our lives and we’re like, Man, what I would have done differently, what I would have changed, what I wish I would have known. And I think what I’ve been redoing, what I’ve been doing is like even reframing those decisions that we can’t undo, right? And like looking back and saying like, like in your example, I would say like, man, I can’t believe I stayed in that place that long. But you know what, I learned a lot of valuable lessons staying in that place, right? Like, I learned I will never compromise and sacrifice my safety, my love for myself, right? Like, it’s taking even those decisions that we can’t change and reframing it and thinking about what we did learn from those moments. I think for me, I mean, I have like, my whole life is an example. This is an example, right? I mean, I feel like I’ve spent so much time looking back and learning to forgive myself, right? And I think that forgiveness, that compassion comes from a place of forgiveness, right? And saying like, man, I forgive myself for making that choice. It wasn’t the best choice for me at the time, you know? But I survived. I learned a lot. I’m grateful, right? What am I going to take with that and take from that experience and move forward, right? And I think what I used to do, I definitely was a person who always saw the glass half empty rather than half full, half before in here. So very practical. And I think for many years it really limited my outlook on life. Right. And so it’s almost like I had to learn, relearn, unlearn, like the glass is not, the glass is only half empty if I say it’s half empty, if I say it’s half full, someone right. Like it’s almost like we, it’s a lot of self-talk and I think it’s through those moments of how you feel after you work through that, that that is like the biggest sort of selling point, right? Like I can, we can sit here. We’re glowing. We’re happy. We do this work all the time. Not that it’s always easy, but this has become a part of our practice, right, is to really hone in on our mindset and think about, okay, what am I thinking? What am I doing? How am I going to move forward? But the biggest selling point for someone that hasn’t done that is to say, just try it.

Christine: Right? Take a moment in your life that you can’t go back and change, right? That may still be defining and guiding your choices today. And reframe that in a way that is empowering, right? So moving from this place of it being a limiting belief to being an empowering and liberating belief. And I think what’s so beautiful is that unlike many other species, we have the power to reframe our story and reinvent our lives and ourselves at any moment, right? So anytime I feel myself, and again, Capricorn here, so my default, my default self is to see that glass half empty. When I feel myself going down that road, when my inner roommate is like, yep, girl, it’s half empty, like making time to pause, to reassess, to reframe, and practice true self-awareness and practice like truly being intentional about what I’m thinking, who I’m talking to, what I’m pouring into myself, what I’m saying to myself, what I’m saying to other people. I recently took like maybe two weeks away from social media because for that very reason I had to say like I want to be very intentional about how I am showing up on this shared timeline of our lives, right? Like if I don’t have something meaningful to say, if I don’t have something that’s helpful and useful, I’m not sure that I should be adding to the noise. Now that’s just me. But I feel very protective and very mindful of the fact that I do have an audience, that I do have people that are listening to what I’m saying. And so being intentional about that is very important to me. There was a time where I would have never paused because I would have been like, oh, my God, the algorithm. And then if I stop posting, they’re going to stop showing me. You know what I mean? And saying like, none of that matters, right? What matters is that you are being authentic and honest and intentional about what you put out into the world. But that’s like constant in the moment self-talk. And so, so much of it when we think about, you know, the leaders from our past and the gurus and you know, these folks that like, it’s like what they were truly working on with self-mastery, that’s essentially what we’re talking about, right? Learning how to master yourself. I am in Washington DC right now. Like literally the White House is right down the street for me. Right. And it’s like self-mastery is like, I am aware of what I can control. I am aware of what I can contribute. I am aware of what and who I need to be engaged with to maintain my sanity and focusing on that as opposed to like spending so much time focused on what I can’t control. So much of this work is self-mastery. And I like to tell people like, I think we’ve been taught so much about collective liberation that we don’t realize that collective liberation starts with personal liberation so it’s like I can’t help anyone else get free unless I’m free. And that freedom, that true freedom comes with self-mastery and really getting to know yourself.

Maureen: I completely agree. And I was hoping to talk a little bit about living in DC and your other careers that you’ve had outside of the wellness space and how your advocacy and your leadership work in the private and public sector and academia, how do those relate to your conception of yourself and how potentially does that impact the way that you dress?

Christine: You know, they are, it’s so funny. It’s like, those are like past lives, right? So I can look back on moments when I was like in big law or in academia and I was such a different woman then. It was so much. I very much felt that limiting belief that I had to dress the part. I had to look the part. Right. And becoming a minimalist broke me from that way of thinking. But, you know, I think now I have learned to embrace my personal style.

I have on a dress right now that I love from Kaz and you know, learning, I love dresses, right? Like I hate pairing tops and bottoms, right? So why am I buying tops? And I just don’t, I don’t buy them unless it’s already a set. And so I think those experiences and especially spending so much of my time, energy, money, trying to look a part that wasn’t me. I think I’m even more intentional now that my style reflects who I am and understanding that style is always changing, always evolving. A book that really helped me that may help your readers and listeners is Courtney Carver. She had a book called Project 333. And basically it taught me how to live with thirty-three pieces for three months. And in that time period, when I had to be very intentional about what I was selecting to be part of my seasonal wardrobe, it really made me realize like what are the silhouettes that I love? And I think for anyone who’s interested in having a capsule wardrobe or would really like to hone in on their personal style, it’s usually those pieces that you naturally gravitate towards. So it’s like when I’m in my closet and I’ve tried on ten different things and nothing is working and I’m just like, what am I going to wear? And it’s that A-line dress from Paz that I gravitate towards. That’s usually a sign that that is your signature style. It’s like you have fifty pairs of jeans, but you wear the same two, which was my sort of issue. It’s like, oh, it’s because these jeans are the style of jean that I like. And so we are very much aware of our intuitive style and what works for us and what we love. The challenge is that our limiting beliefs, our inner roommate, what society is telling us, like we can allow those voices to dictate and change our mind. I’m using like funny quotes.

When we know, right? So it’s just like, someone’s saying, oh my god, but you wore that dress two weeks ago. I don’t care. I have a washing machine. You know what I mean? It’s like getting to that place of not caring what other people may think about what you’re wearing, how often you wear it. I’m a repeat wearer. I love the things that I have. And it’s, I mean, I think I’ve become known for that now, but I remember early on, there was a time when I was making that switch where I was like, I mean, I just wore that red jumpsuit on a podcast. But it was just like, I’m gonna wear the red jumpsuit all the time because that is my, when I have that on and I hold up the book, it’s a whole thing and I love it. And just being myself is a big part of embracing my style. So I look back to answer your question. I look back on those old versions of me and while I may have looked nice, while I may have looked the part, it was like putting on a costume. I was like performing. Right. And so I have since learned and becoming a minimalist again really helped with that. My intuitive style. I know it works for me and my body type and I know what makes me happy.

Maureen: Yeah, and I think it’s so important too that when we talk about a capsule wardrobe, we’re not talking about specific pieces that everyone has to have, right? We’re specifically talking about the things that you would wear all the time, I think you touched on this idea of we know what those pieces are that we want to wear. That for whatever reason, these limiting beliefs stop us from wearing. So like, I used to want to wear pants with like stretchy waistbands. And because I also identified as a creative person who was artistic and also fashion-oriented, I was like, oh, I can’t wear those stretchy pants because they’re not stylish. I will not be stylish. I

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: will look a certain type of way. So I feel that very deeply that there’s a disconnect. We know what we want, but there’s something inside of us telling us that we shouldn’t do that. And so I approached a capsule wardrobe the same way as like just giving ourselves permission to wear the things that we want to wear without apology, without uh, you know, whatever.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And I do also acknowledge that sometimes they’re, like, how do we grapple with the fact that sometimes the things that we want to wear actually make us physically unsafe? Um, I don’t, I can’t say that that’s happened to me necessarily,

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: um, so it’s not necessarily something that I can speak to, but. You know, there are instances where doing what you want to do, that authentic, uh, thing that you can’t do actually could bring you harm. Do you have any thoughts on how to navigate that or?

Christine: Yeah, I mean, I think I am a person who believes that it’s like nothing that you are wearing should, nothing that you wear is bringing you harm. I think that’s like another narrative. That we’ve been taught, right? I mean, I think wearing what you want and then being in the wrong environment with the wrong type of people can bring you harm, right? But it’s not what you’re wearing. Right. And I think it’s, it’s those, it’s in those moments, like you’re saying with the stretchy waistband and, you know, like, man, I can’t wear that or man, I don’t know if I could wear this out. And it’s just like, those are those moments when you ask yourself why. Why do I feel like wearing this outfit to this event with these people that I can’t be safe? I should be able to wear. Whatever I want, right? It is the people and the people in an environment that may be making, that may put me in harm’s way. It’s not what I’m wearing, right? And reclaiming that. And then you ask yourself, Well, why am I going to this environment if I can’t wear what I want because it’s going to put me in harm’s way? Maybe you’re out of alignment, right? Those are in those moments where I’m like, hmm, I’m not in alignment. Why can’t I wear these with this people with these particular group of friends? They are going to make me feel X, Y, and Z. Hmm. Is this a genuine connection? Are these genuine connections? Because I should be able to wear Whatever I want with my friends and have them see me and celebrate me for who I am, not for what I have. Right. It’s like in those moments, those are the why moments. You know what I mean?

Maureen: When you put it like that, yeah, no, I mean, yeah.

Christine: But, but it’s taken time. I mean, I don’t, I don’t want to make it. I mean, like I’m almost fifty years old. So I’ve gone through all of these things. And I think what I’ve. Really learn to love and appreciate in this season of my life is being able to share and impart that on a younger generation because I remember that feeling, oh, I can’t wear this for whatever reason, right? And looking back on those moments, it’s like. I wasn’t in alignment, right? With who I was with, with where I was going, with what I was doing. That was the real discomfort. It was never about the outfit.

Maureen: Yeah.

Christine: Right?

Maureen: Yeah. Completely. Um. I’m just rethinking so much right now. No, I mean, I feel the same. Like, I can give an example that I talked about on a recent episode of the podcast where I was going to a bridal shower and I just hated the idea of wearing some sort of floral dress thing situation, which I’ll wear for the wedding, but just like on a Saturday in someone’s backyard, I’m like not trying to wear like a strapless dress, okay?

Christine: Yeah.

Maureen: But I knew that everyone else that was going to be there was going to be dressed like that. And so I was like, what do I like? Do I not go or do I just wear something else? And so I was like, I want to go. I want to support the bride and I’m going to wear jeans and I’m going to wear, I actually wear this cardigan that I’m wearing right now. I was like, I’m just gonna try. I’m just gonna dress how I want to dress at this event. It’s still, like, formal enough. It’s still respectful. And, you know, I didn’t make compliments, but I also, like, no one looked at me and was like, are you wearing that?

Christine: That’s the other thing, like, we think people care more than they do, and I, and I say that all the time, I love that you brought that up, Maureen, because I say that all the time. Someone will say, well, what, what are they going to think? And I’m like, they aren’t thinking about you as much as you think they are, right?

Maureen: Yeah.

Christine: We, there are times that I would talk myself out of something or allow my inner roommate to talk me out of something where people just wanted me to be there. You know what I mean? Like, I’m sure, like you said, even though you didn’t get compliments, people weren’t like, get out of here with your car to get in your jeans. You know what I mean? Those genuine connections, people see you and love you for who you are, not for what you have. I’m going to say that again. When it’s a genuine connection. People see you for who you are, not for what you have. The clothing you wear, the handbags you’re carrying, the house that you’re living in, all those things are so Transact, they can be so transactional in nature when it comes to our friendships. And I think learning to differentiate between. Genuine connections and those that were transactional or surface. It has been life changing for me. Right. And that is that coming into alignment. Um, or as my coach says, my coach therapist, I feel like she’s everything. She says, you know, like it’s about being in right relation with people. And when you’re in right relation, it just doesn’t. All those things don’t matter.

Maureen: I think what I’m seeing too in real time is this It’s this connection, I keep saying I’m having an existential crisis and I mean that in a positive way.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Like, in a way where the rest of my life is going to look so much more expansive Because I sat with the grief and I sat with all the things that I had to unlearn. And one example that I can think of right from this example of like, okay, if I want to go in this space and I have to be dressed in a certain way. That’s because the systems and the people that are there are expecting that of me. And like, ultimately, it’s about redefining success, right? Like, if

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: I wanted to be on CNN as a tele, like, a reporter on camera, I would have to have my hair bleached and straightened and I’d have to wear like all these layers of makeup, right? That would be a specific definition of success that’s related to power, money, whatever else. And so rather than go into that space, I’ll instead, I don’t actually want to do that to be clear. But rather than that, I will create a podcast where we can have engaging conversations and show up as ourselves. And it’s just about redefining what success looks like for us.

Christine: Yeah.

Maureen: So that we can live in alignment rather than, you know, feeling that we have to have that specific version of success that forces us to, you know, be in that cycle of showing up as someone else.

Christine: Yeah, and I mean, I think too, like, in those moments, it’s like, is that true? So that’s another, like, I ask myself why a lot. Excuse me. And I also ask myself, is that true?

Maureen: Uh-huh.

Christine: Right? And so, because I do think there are narratives and stories that we tell ourselves, right? We’ll go through something and we’ll say like, oh my God, everyone hates me. So when I, when I find myself talking in absolutes, I’m always like, is that true? And it’s like one person, right? Maybe whoever I’m in, you know, whoever triggered this thought, right? But I think oftentimes too, like we tell ourselves, narratives and use those limiting beliefs to talk us out of even trying.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Christine: You know what I mean? So it’s like, let me first try to get on CNN as myself.

Maureen: You know, I can think of an example, actually, to your point where Nicole Byer, the comedian, she is a host on so many different shows and she doesn’t wear high heels, she wears flats. And I remember watching her and thinking, I’ve never seen anyone do that before.

Christine: Yeah.

Maureen: And she did it. So, that’s such a good point.

Christine: Sometimes ask yourself, is this true?

Maureen: Right.

Christine: Let me try first, right?

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Because so much of the conditioning and the limiting beliefs are not just from our own personal experiences. It’s what we see represented or it’s what has been told or shown to us, right? And again, if it hasn’t been modeled for you. If you’ve never seen anyone on any of these shows other than, you know, women who are wearing high heels, you think I have to wear high heels, right?

Maureen: Uh-huh,

Christine: But then you see someone that is wearing flats and you’re like, so it is possible to wear flats. Let me try to wear flats, right? So I think also take some time to question, you know, like, is this true? Why? Why?

Maureen: Christine, I’m growing. I’m growing from this call.

Christine: Yeah, I mean, and this is like, it’s so wild to be having this conversation because I have spent so much of the past two years doing this very work. I mean, Less is Liberation burst my soul wide open, right? Like I thought. Okay, the Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less is about letting go of things that no longer serve you. This is going to be about letting go of limiting beliefs and behaviors. And it was like, whoa. Like you, I can’t write about the process without going through the process and going through the process taught me just how deeply we’re conditioned knowingly or unknowingly. Whether it was society, people who loved us, it doesn’t matter, right? It’s like, wow, like, I am at least asking myself why and is this true at least once or twice a day? Right.

And I am like deep in this. And so I love that you say that you’re growing. You know what I mean? I feel like that is. That’s, that’s why these conversations are so important. That’s why this work is so important. It’s so important for us to hear someone else’s story, to see ourselves in someone else’s story. To see that modeling and know what’s possible because we don’t, we don’t know what we don’t know.

Maureen: Yeah, yeah. And we have all these preconceived notions of what it means to be a particular type of person or to be in a particular type of space. And just because it’s been that way in the past doesn’t mean that there’s not an opportunity for it to be different in the future. And we just have to. Smartly and calculatedly, uh, listen to that. My husband and I do try our nest. I don’t always get it right, right? Like, there are times where I’m like, man, that was the people pleaser in me that said you know? I’m gonna follow through it next time, right? It’s not that you always get it right, but it is to say that I’m actively trying to not allow my life to be dictated by limiting things. Beliefs that I have about myself. And, um, that is, that’s the work. And I think the inner work is beautiful.

Maureen: Yeah, and I think what you do so well in your work, and I’m trying to emulate, is that the work that we are doing is… The work that we share. So basically like demonstrating rather than telling.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: One other thing that I’m trying to do and you’ve talked about this with your social media pause, right? That’s a great example of demonstrating to the people that are in your community and in your readership, I’m doing this too and I’m evaluating too and you Again, showing that example of like, I’m a creator who’s doing this and if you, you know, you can do the same thing. And um, I’m taking a break from the podcast, which I love doing. I’m taking a break for the, for the summer. And you know, I had all these limiting thoughts in my head about like, oh, if I do that, what if I miss out on opportunities to have all these amazing guests? That will, like, just have happened, you know, right in that very particular moment in time.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And then I’m like, okay, but then would I be ready emotionally and otherwise to Rise to the challenge and show up in the way that I want to for these guests. And if I meet, if I, you know, push and try to have all these new episodes come out while I’m, you know, not in that headspace.

Christine: Yeah.

Maureen: You know, is that really the best decision that I can make? And so I’m pausing.

Christine: Yeah. I mean, pausing is so important and I talk about it in Less is Liberation for that very reason, I think. We have been conditioned to think like, if I pause, I’m going to fall behind. If I pause, I’m going to miss out. And I can assure you. Like, we’re like, no one’s ever gonna ask to be on my puck and it’s like, the ask will keep coming, the conversations will, like, part of that is like a scarcity mindset. When I have those thoughts, I’m like, ooh, Christine, like you’re operating from a place of scarcity and like, yes, so what, like the first week The algorithm is going to be confused because now you’re back online.

But, you know, if twenty people like the post and in a month, those twenty people is one person. A couple hours ago, I checked that post and there was one woman who was like, man, this really resonated with me. She was talking about, you know, how obviously she worked for government and how—It has just altered. And, you know, she was like, wow, this post really resonated with me. And I closed the app and I was like, well, my work is done. You know what I mean? So I think it’s also thinking about we’ve been conditioned to think about social media and, you know, it being a form of currency that I financially haven’t been able to do anything with. I can’t pay my daughter’s tuition with likes. Right.

Christine: But again, we’ve been conditioned to think like, oh man, if the posts didn’t get this number of likes, then it wasn’t— You know, effective. It wasn’t High performing. And it’s like, but man, if it helped one person think differently and if it helped them rethink and reframe how they’re going to move through this difficult season in their life, isn’t that more important than having 500 likes and no comments? You know what I mean? I think like it’s in the, again, I’ve had to learn how to do that and how to reframe. Excuse me. You know, it’s hard, you know, especially, I mean, I remember like, I would post something and I’d have like 3,000 likes, right? But it’s like, what if 3,000 people didn’t really read that? They just liked it because they saw I posted it, right? Like, I’m learning to be more concerned about impact than like image aesthetics, what is going on? It’s like, is what I’m doing impactful?

And if you want your podcast to be impactful. And you take that purposeful pause that I call—call it in the book, right? Like you come back stronger, better, being able to engage with your guests in a different way in those pauses where we find moments to like, be innovative and creative. You know what I mean? Like, there’s all sorts of things that happen in those moments of pause that we, it just, we can’t get that type of clarity when we’re constantly going and doing. You know, and yeah, you have to let go. And I’m proud of you. Take the pause, right? Like, it’s like, oh my gosh. Again, we’re so hard on ourselves. Like, this idea that my God, I have to post the episode like every week or what? It’s just, it’s so much.

Maureen: Have to keep up the momentum, Christine.

Christine: You have the momentum. You have—

Maureen: No—I’m kidding.

Christine: Be high performing. Right. Like in all these things, like the reason the subtitle to Less is Liberation is “finding freedom from a life of overwhelm” is because those are the things that overwhelm us. And that’s a choice that you can make to—Not have that overwhelm. And I want people to become more aware of and empowered by the fact that they get to make choices in their lives.

And those choices are what determine our overconsumption, our overwhelm, all of those things. And, um, the power of choice, man, when we tap into that, it’s a game changer.

Maureen: Yeah. And choice is scary because then it says, uh, I’m actually, this is a choice that I made. And if you judge me, you’re judging the choice that I made. And I think that can be scary and make people not want to make choices.

Christine: People pleasers I think are very concerned about what other people think and what are they going to say. So I lived in that space for so long and like you realize, I mean, the people and people, they’re going to talk—No matter what. If you make a choice, if you don’t make a choice, if you do nothing, someone is out there talking about me right now. I have no idea. I wish them well. You know what I mean? It’s like, you have to let go. There’s so many limiting beliefs around what other people think and allowing what we’ve convinced ourselves, we don’t know if it’s true or not, but what we’ve convinced ourselves is true, allowing that to dictate our lives and our choices. Self-mastery.

Maureen: So my typical end of interview question is your advice that you would give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that is intuitive and authentic to them. I feel like this whole conversation has been an answer to that. Not about clothes, but about the experience. So any final thoughts before we talk about Less Liberation?

Christine: I mean, I think the only thing I would say is, um, you know, you already know what you naturally gravitate towards. Allow yourself to think about why is that the outfit that if it’s last minute, and I know that like, this will not fail me. What is it about that outfit that makes you feel that way? Is it the color? Is it the fit? Is it the fabric? Like, what is it about that? That makes you feel like, excuse me, that makes you feel like, you know, out of everything in my closet, I’m just going to put this on because I know it’s going to work for me. And there is part of your intuitive style.

Maureen: So we are fully in pre-order season for your book. And so can you please tell the listeners why pre-ordering Less is Liberation is very important for you and any author that you want to support in case people don’t know.

Christine: Yes! Pre-orders are so helpful to authors. It really helps the publisher know that people are interested in the book, it helps us get into brick and mortar stores, online retailers, and also when, um, especially like, let’s say like a certain city or a certain area when they are heavily, uh, like, wow, there’s a lot of people in, I don’t know, Kansas City, you know, who’ve pre-ordered Less is Liberation and saying, oh, we should have her do, uh, we should make that a stop on her book tour. Right? So it really is helpful to both the authors and the readers, but I think more importantly, those early sales numbers are such good indicators for the author and the publisher of interest in the book, where we should go on book tour. Um, and yeah, I mean, it feels good to know that someone is pre-ordering my book. And, uh, I really poured my heart and soul into Less Liberation and I think it’s very much like the Afro Minimalist guide in the sense that, you know, that book came out during the pandemic. Everyone was home with their stuff. And even though I didn’t plan that with the Afro Minimalist and I definitely didn’t plan, uh, Less Liberation, I didn’t know that we would be in this moment of collective overwhelm right now, but I do think it is a book that is divinely—excuse me—but it’s divinely timed that will really help people through, help them navigate the season that we’re in. Yeah.

Maureen: I will be pre-ordering Less is Liberation. It’s coming out right after my birthday, so birthday present to—Me. Um, but come to San Francisco on your book tour and I’ll show up.

Christine: Yay!

Maureen: Thank you so much. I mean, I, this, this whole conversation is incredible. I’m growing and your work helps me and so many other people grow and then share similar ideas around the choices that we actually have in our lives. So just thank you for everything.

Christine: Thank you and thank you for having me on the podcast and enjoy your break!

Maureen: Thank you. I plan to, I plan to. Thank you—

Christine: Good.

Maureen: Thanks so much.

Christine: You’re welcome.

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