In this episode, host Rachael Wonderlin speaks with Dr. Julie Hanks, a licensed therapist, author, and featured expert in HBO’s Ruby & Jodi: A Cult of Sin and Influence, about how “helping people help people” can become a dangerous trap when therapy language, faith, and unregulated coaching collide.

Together, Rachael and Dr. Hanks unpack the rise and fallout of Jodi Hildebrandt’s coaching empire, her influence over Ruby Franke, and how coercive control, made-up certifications, and “train-the-trainer” coaching models created a high-control group that resulted in real harm. Dr. Hanks also explains how mental health terminology like trauma, truth, distortion, and healing was weaponized, why the lack of coaching regulation matters, and how vulnerable people are targeted through shame, urgency, and spiritual authority.

Key Takeaways:

– Unregulated coaching creates real risk. Anyone can call themselves a coach, create a certification, and charge thousands, without any oversight or accountability.

– Therapy language can be used to manipulate. Words like trauma, truth, and healing become dangerous when used by unqualified leaders claiming authority over others’ lives.

– “Coaching coaches to coach” mirrors MLM and cult structures. Jodi Hildebrandt’s model relied on paid certifications that allowed followers to recruit and coach others using her ideology.

– High-control groups thrive on fear and urgency. Isolation, moral judgment, and pressure to “act now” are key warning signs that support has crossed into control.

– Ethical help restores autonomy instead of fostering dependency. Legitimate therapy and coaching empower people to trust themselves, not surrender their inner compass to an external authority.

Memorable Quotes:

“If anyone sets themselves up as the expert on your life—run.”

“Good therapy teaches people to go inward, not seek external authority.”

“She didn’t just blur boundaries…she erased them.”

“Certifications don’t mean safety. Ethics do.”

“When questioning costs you more money, you’re not being helped. You’re being controlled.”

About the Guest:

Dr. Julie Hanks is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, author, and media expert with over 30 years of experience specializing in women’s mental health, relationships, and faith-based recovery, particularly within the LDS community. She was a featured expert in HBO’s Ruby & Jodi: A Cult of Sin and Influence, where she provided critical insight into coercive control, ethical violations, and the misuse of therapy language within high-control groups. Dr. Hanks runs Wasatch Family Therapy in Utah and also offers coaching through a separate, clearly defined practice.

About Rachael:

Rachael Wonderlin is a dementia care consultant and gerontologist. She founded her consultancy, Dementia By Day, in 2014. She is the author of When Someone You Know is Living in a Dementia Care Community, Creative Engagement, and The Caregiver’s Guide to Memory Care and Dementia Communities.

Find out more at www.rachaelwonderlin.com and Instagram.com/dementiabyday.