In this episode, Sal sits down with Ed Gilchrest, President and Owner of Gyre9 & President of G9EV, and Frank von Holzhausen, Chief Research and Design Officer of Gyre9 & Chairman of G9EV, for a deep dive into the delicate balance between courage and caution in business. From their distinct yet complementary paths, they explore the challenges of being “guns for hire” versus creating and selling their own products. Ed and Frank reflect on how luck and timing have shaped their journey, sharing key moments where taking bold risks—or playing it safe—made all the difference. The conversation dives into the process of designing for innovation, the struggle to push clients beyond familiar solutions, and the complex relationship between market research and gut instinct. Ed, who once doubted the value of research, opens up about how his perspective shifted and how bias can sometimes override the data. They also discuss the realities of running a business in a fast-paced, unpredictable environment, comparing it to putting out multiple fires on the same street. As they share personal insights on managing the feast-or-famine cycle, they offer hard-won advice for entrepreneurs on staying resilient while keeping the lights on and pushing boundaries. Packed with stories of risk-taking, creative courage, and the realities of entrepreneurship, this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the complex landscape of business, design, and innovation.