Labels used to have a marketing plan for their artists. Now the marketing plan is the artist: post about the album five times a day for six months, then post the presale link again.

Jesse Boykins III writes the songs, then directs the worlds they live in. Five albums of his own, a Grammy nomination for co-writing Steve Lacy’s “Playground”, an executive producer credit on Jessie J’s album, and he’s been working with Steve Lacy since Steve was 15.

In this conversation I break down with Jesse why big artists can’t sell tickets anymore and why it’s not their fault, what artist development actually means and the five album test that proves it, why Steve Lacy hasn’t dropped in three years, why Frank Ocean probably has a hundred albums we’ll never hear, and why so many brilliant creatives never finish anything. We also get into the director side. Why the performance beats the perfect shot, why he’ll throw out the shot list on set, what he does when a client says no, and the movie that made him want to make movies.

If you’re an artist, director or creative trying to build something that lasts, this one is for you.

0:00 Cold Open

2:28 What He Taught Leon Thomas About World Building

4:50 Treat Your Artistry Like A Brand

6:23 Niche Fan Bases vs Viral Hits

7:15 The Difference Is Vision

8:07 Why Chasing A Hit Is Fleeting

9:11 Real Vision vs Pinterest References

10:35 No Story, Just References

11:22 “I’m Too Boring” Is Your Best Material

12:38 A Photographer Since 14 Who Never Said So

13:41 Directing 13 Years Before Calling Himself A Director

14:27 One Project Doesn’t Make You A Director

15:24 What Made Anthony Mandler Different

16:52 I Don’t Care If A Song Sounds Good

18:15 Nobody Told You This Wasn’t Good Enough

19:05 The Perfect Shot vs The Real Performance

21:31 DPs Are All The Same Archetype

22:39 Directing Is A Grocery List

23:16 Forget The Shot List

24:51 “Everything Today Is Meant To Be This Way”

26:02 Why He Runs A Feel Good Set

30:36 What Great Artists Have In Common

31:12 Jessie J’s Hidden Talent

31:50 Steve Lacy Was Making Beats On His Phone At 15

33:48 Is Artist Development Dead?

34:34 The 5 Album Test

35:27 Labels Don’t Ask Questions

36:31 Sales Is Asking The Right Questions

37:27 Ask An Artist Questions Like A First Date

40:32 Why Big Artists Can’t Sell Tickets

42:50 Bring Back Street Teams

44:07 You Can’t Blame The Artist

44:58 College Tours And Cruise Ships

46:11 Spend Half The Budget On Marketing

47:59 Who He Makes Films For

49:10 Why His Treatments Take So Long

52:11 When To Trust Your Gut

54:27 Taste vs Vision

55:16 Why Brilliant Creatives Never Finish

56:38 Russ Says Just Put It Out

59:32 Some Artists Hold Music Sacred

1:00:00 Why Steve Lacy Hasn’t Dropped In 3 Years

1:00:35 Frank Ocean Probably Has 100 Albums

1:01:08 Does Putting Out Too Much Hurt You?

1:03:48 Commercial Directors Want To Do Music Videos

1:04:18 When The Client Says No: Director’s Cut

1:08:55 How To Actually Add Value

1:10:51 Swap The First And Second Verse

1:12:26 What’s Next: “I’m A Creator”

1:16:31 “I Met My Wife At Your Show”

1:17:16 The Passion Project We Keep Putting Off

1:18:48 Why We Put Obstacles In Front Of The Hero Story

1:20:43 Card Pull: What He’s Always Wanted To Try

Follow Jesse here

Follow Arrad (podcast host) here

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